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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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 Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Titel: »Schwert mit Scheide«
Datierung: 1512 - 1541
Material / Technik: Gesamtlänge: 117 cm, Klinge: 80 cm; Gewicht: 1830 g
Standort: Rüstkammer
Inventarnummer: VI 365, XI 213
Abbildungsvorlage: Verfügbar als Ektachrom oder High-End-Scan
Bestellnummer: RK-VI-365-PS01.tif
Rechteinhaber: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden
Aufnahme: Klut / Estel
English translation:
Title: "sword with sheath"
dating: 1512 - 1541
Material/technology: Overall length: 117 cm, blade: 80 cm; Weight: 1830 g
Location: Preparation chamber
inventory number: VI 365, XI 213
illustration collecting main: Available as Ektachrom or High end Scan
Part number: RK-VI-365-PS01.tif
Right owner: National art collections Dresden
Admission: Klut/Estel
So a high-resolution image or chrome is available!! Peter, are you planning on trying to obtain this from the museum?
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Einar Drønnesund
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| Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, that double fuller is tiny. Would it have any real effect on performance on that huge blade, or do you guys think its mostly decorative?
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Kenneth Enroth
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| Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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You guys are fantastic. In a few hours you've pulled up the swords location, pictures, stats and a portrait of the original owner. I don't think it was a good idea to annoy that guy. He looks a little unstable. Certainly the kind of guy who could appreciate the power this sword would generate. An 80 cm long blade that weighs 1830 grams is on the hefty side.
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David R. Glier
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| Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Absolutly amazing. And only four pounds for a blade of that size! I must have a reproduction of something similar.
Nathan, this place has got to be one of the finest -if not the finest- sword resources on the web to date.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Now that I see high res. photos of it I'm *really* liking this sword.
Peter,
If you happen to do a recreation of this one please give me first choice.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Good morning!
Thanks guys 
While I´ve been sleeping you´ve found all I need to know to be able to proceed. Now it is just a matter of making a pilgrimage to Dresden. I need to study this sword closer.
Perhaps I can even get to document it carefully.
We´ll see.
Dresden seems to be a nice place with all thses art museums and historical relics of high interest. Never been there before.
I need to make a sword like this.
Just look at that scabbard!
The lenght (blade and total) and weight are quite similar to the sword of Svante Nilsson Sture, btw.
Thanks again!
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Kenneth Enroth
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 3:43 am Post subject: |
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I tried to make a scale drawing of the sword. There may be something wrong with the stats. If you assume the total length of 117 cm is correct the blade turns out to be 88.5 centimeters long (just under 35 inches). Eight centimeters longer than the museum's stats. If you go by a blade length of 80 cm then the sword ends up too short. It is the version with the longer blade that looks more natural. It becomes the size of a warsword.
I added an attachment showing a comparison to the Svante sword. There is only a centimeter difference in total length. The Svante has a blade length of 33,5 inches and the Heinrich sword on the right still has a slightly longer blade.
 Attachment: 48.46 KB
Comparison to the Svante sword. [ Download ]
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Kenneth,
I did the same today and arrived at the same conclusion. I think the blade length is around 88 cm and the total length is 117 cm
Interesting to see these two swords side by side, isn´t it?
I guess we´ll have to wait untill I can get a measurement made or someone at the armoury returns my message with some more exact info...
It is really splendid that this sword has survived and in such good condition!
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Allen W
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Just doing the conversions in my head, I come up with an overall length of roughly 43" which is about 3" shorter than the Svante sword and seems right for the stated 32" blade which might be handier considering the width. Why did you compare this with the Svante at the same overall length?Compare the implied 11" grip with this one by Christian Fletcher.
Attachment: 19.7 KB
![at1593[1].jpg](files/at1593_1_.jpg)
Attachment: 21.76 KB
![at1593hilt[1].jpg](files/at1593hilt_1_.jpg)
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Allen W wrote: | | Just doing the conversions in my head, I come up with an overall length of roughly 43" which is about 3" shorter than the Svante sword and seems right for the stated 32" blade which might be handier considering the width. Why did you compare this with the Svante at the same overall length?Compare the implied 11" grip with this one by Christian Fletcher. |
I compared with the sword of Svante Nilsson since the length given for the Heinirch sword is so very similar to the length of the Svante sword. I think it is the given total length that is correct, not the stated blade length. Given the weight of 1.8 kilos a length of 117 cm seems probable.
When I last met Christian Fletcher we spent some time looking through some documentations of originals I had brought along. Among these was the material for the long gripped sword in the Bayerisches National museum that seems to be the basis for the sword shown in the picture above.
The Bayerisches sword I know very well as I have handeled the original. I am presently working on a custom project making a copy of this sword. It has a total length of around 127 cm (50"). That is quite a bit longer than the vante Nilsson sword: about 10 cm.
The Svante Nilson Sture sword is 117.5 cm (46.2") depending on what you make of the rivetblock, which has now mostly rusted away.
If we choose the overall lenght of 117 cm (46") given as the length of the sword of Heinrich the Pious, then I get by rough calculation from the photograph (and that cannot be relied on completely as most photographs are distorted somewhat) a blade lenght of 88.6 cm (34.9"). If on the other hand we take the blade length of 80 cm (31.5") as the correct number, the total length of the sword is not 117 cm (46"), but 105 cm (41.3"). 105 cm total length seems a bit short to me...
We cannot know for sure what numbers are correct, untill a more careful documenntation has been made of the sword. I tend to think the length is correctly given and that the blade length is too short. I might be wrong.
Ratio between blade and hilt on these swords are:
Heinrich´s sword: 3.29 : 1
Svante´s sword: 2.68 : 1
The Bayerisches sword: 3.1 : 1
Of all three the Heinrich sword has the shortest grip in relation the the blade and the sword of Svante Nilsson has the longest grip in relation to the blade. The Bayerisches sword falls in between.
The proportion between grip and blade are closer between the Bayerisces and the Heinrich, but difference in length and character makes me prefer to compare it to the Svante Sword. They seem to be closer in character (or personality?). The Bayerisches sword is a lighter weapon, although sturdy, it weighs some 1.4+ kilos. The weight of the Svante sword is very close to the weight of the Heinrich sword: both are around 1.8 kilo. I would not be surpriced if they have similar handling characteristics.
All three swords relate to the proportion of the golden section in many aspects.
The Bayerisches sword and Svante both have forward pivot points just at the very point of the blade.
It will would be very interesting to know how these things work out on the Heinrich sword...
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Allen W
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 11:45 am Post subject: |
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My mistake. In my initial conversion I overlooked the tens digit and figured it from 107cm.
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Kenneth Enroth
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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They must be quite unusual these XXII swords. I never cared about the one in "Records" (XXII.1) beacuse Oakeshott had it as a royal parade sword.
The likeness to the Svante sword suggests that this may be a very high quality sword. And it should be, like the Svante it was owned by a man of very high status. Probably custom made.
The letters "HK" on the rainguard, might they be the owners initials?
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenneth Enroth wrote: | | The letters "HK" on the rainguard, might they be the owners initials? |
Steve Fabert says this:
| Quote: | | The caption describes it as a sword belonging to "Heinrich der Fromme" (Henry the Pious), an apparent reference to Herzog Heinrich V of Saxony (1473-1541), Elector of Saxony from 1539-1541. There are many web references in German to this nobleman, but I don't know offhand of any that give his details in English. |
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Sean Flynt
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Steve Fabert
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenneth Enroth wrote: |
The letters "HK" on the rainguard, might they be the owners initials? |
Apparently not. I find no reference to any family connection for Heinrich with a "K" spelling for the surname.
Heinrich V is renowned for his status as the first Protestant ruler of Saxony, a strong ally of Martin Luther. So the letters could have a religious signification.
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom
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| Posted: Mon 15 Nov, 2004 11:22 am Post subject: |
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 When i zoom in on Nathan's picture so looks all letter H like they are cut off in center,
can it be like IK or KI or IIV or IVI or VII, something short in Latin 
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom
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| Posted: Mon 15 Nov, 2004 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Well! i am not alone about thinking on it, can i see
Heinrich die Fromme (pious) was very religious and he was a Martin Luther fan
so i belive i have one for KI or K1
Kleiner Katechismus 1.Gebot:
Ich bin der Herr, dein Gott. Du sollst nicht andere Götter haben neben mir.
Little Catechism 1. bid/pray:
I am your lord, your God. You should not have any other god's beside me.
Uuuh! not me.
Patrik
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This is a standard topic
