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Luka Borscak
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 Posted: Thu 28 Jun, 2012 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Swords of the Swiss in the first picture look like real two handers to me, do we have any real proofs that Swiss didn't use two handers but just hand and a halfs?
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David Gaál
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| Posted: Thu 28 Jun, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | Swords of the Swiss in the first picture look like real two handers to me, do we have any real proofs that Swiss didn't use two handers but just hand and a halfs? |
I said prefer not just used. In what I have posted the Graphics are in the main background of statements. But the writer says that sometimes they could be wrong because they show what the maker wanted to see, however we could not state that in spite of this they could not carry meaning. I don't like swords so much to have ever felt to make deeper digestion. Sorry I have only said what I know if it could help.
Dávid
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Thu 28 Jun, 2012 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| David Gaál wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | Swords of the Swiss in the first picture look like real two handers to me, do we have any real proofs that Swiss didn't use two handers but just hand and a halfs? |
I said prefer not just used. In what I have posted the Graphics are in the main background of statements. But the writer says that sometimes they could be wrong because they show what the maker wanted to see, however we could not state that in spite of this they could not carry meaning. I don't like swords so much to have ever felt to make deeper digestion. Sorry I have only said what I know if it could help.
Dávid |
Ok, I get it. I was just surprised because two handers are often linked to Swiss and even Albion's text on their upcoming Tyrolean two hander talks about Swiss using such swords... But then again, such two handers are smaller than later german zweihanders we always see as specifically landsknecht weapons...
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Benjamin Floyd II
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| Posted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel Wallace wrote: |
the point of having the parrying lugs so close to the guard is to protect the fingers when you have your index finger wrapped around the quillon (in an italian styled grip) at lest thats what i've gather from reading over parrier haken. other ideas on them are to keep a blade at bay - or a little use at helped to trap a blade. but after reading the "memorial" a montatne is not typically used to bind a blade at all. |
The bolded phrase is completely wrong. Germans gripped this way as well. There's more than one source showing this, but I've attached just one of sveral instances in Meyer's manual, who is definately German.
 Attachment: 96.8 KB
Krieg School of Historical Swordsmanship
A HEMA Alliance Affliate
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Ben,
Of course, Meyer is tricky, since he has a fair bit of Italian influence.
Having said that, I agree with you - both the fingered grip and the thumb grip appear in a variety of texts (see Marozzo's spadone for the thumb grip in guardia di testa, for example). However, the OP isn't precisely wrong. The Italians were credited historically with the fingered grip (true or not), but we do know that the first examples of a fingered cross appear in southern Italy c. 1150 with a finger being extended outside the mail mufflers to grip the cross, and it seems more common in Italy than elsewhere. (Of course, maybe based on this date and place we should call it the "Norman grip"!  )
Who really originated it? Who knows, but the Italianate grip is a reasonable term since it predominated there and Italian fencing came to supplant other native styles, just as the thumb grip seems to have predominated in Germany.
Best,
Greg
Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com
www.freelanceacademypress.com
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Steve Hick
Location: United States Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Greg Mele wrote: | Ben,
Of course, Meyer is tricky, since he has a fair bit of Italian influence.
Having said that, I agree with you - both the fingered grip and the thumb grip appear in a variety of texts (see Marozzo's spadone for the thumb grip in guardia di testa, for example). However, the OP isn't precisely wrong. The Italians were credited historically with the fingered grip (true or not), but we do know that the first examples of a fingered cross appear in southern Italy c. 1150 with a finger being extended outside the mail mufflers to grip the cross, and it seems more common in Italy than elsewhere. (Of course, maybe based on this date and place we should call it the "Norman grip"! )
Who really originated it? Who knows, but the Italianate grip is a reasonable term since it predominated there and Italian fencing came to supplant other native styles, just as the thumb grip seems to have predominated in Germany.
Best,
Greg |
Actually David nicolle attributes this to the Levantine influence on Italy...He may be making it up from whole cloth or perhaps his source for this (Ada de bruhn hoffmeyer) was as well. This is a stray piece of data that indicates that perhaps novati through Torricelli....
Steve
Steve Hick
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