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David Evans
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 Posted: Sun 27 May, 2012 9:45 am Post subject: 16th Century |
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You could go voiders. But I'd suggest mail sleeves as it saves on buying kit....
You need tassets at a minimum........
A Garniture is a COMPLETE set of armour that can be put on or taken off, as needed, You can either add leg armour to cover the gap from the tassets downwards OR remove the tassets and replace them with full leg armour. BOTH options would be in the package available.
Look here for a picture of tassets and leg armour http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...London.JPG
That's the idea behind a garniture. One set of armour, with all parts matched, to cover all the possible
Look here for a picture from the Almain Album
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O78115/design/
Notice All the extra armour on the right page
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Joshua Santana
Location: Bayville, NJ Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon 28 May, 2012 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | A Garniture is a COMPLETE set of armour that can be put on or taken off, as needed, You can either add leg armour to cover the gap from the tassets downwards OR remove the tassets and replace them with full leg armour. BOTH options would be in the package available.
Look here for a picture of tassets and leg armour http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...London.JPG
That's the idea behind a garniture. One set of armour, with all parts matched, to cover all the possible |
I honestly like the idea of the Garniture, however I am still looking at investing in a Half Harness, would that still be ok.
I have been looking at several half harnesses (without etching) dating late 16th Century, but I am considering in the long run to create a Garniture by adding the leg harness, greaves and sabatons (which in essence I am slowly creating a full harness). However I find the half harness to be a better deal for my budget but the Garniture idea is considered.
I am looking for a Hard Kit that will look like these half harnesses.
http://www.arador.com/gallery/friend3.jpg
http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/7669/picture1ufz.png
(the differences would be the pauldrons would not have hault guards and no burgonet )
Would this be a better idea or would I be better off with creating a Garniture?
What I originally had in mind was this.
http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/citi/ima...937294.jpg
Would this qualify as a Garniture?
I appreciate the feedback, thank you.
Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio
Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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William P
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| Posted: Mon 28 May, 2012 10:26 am Post subject: |
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the more posh grnitures were a matching set in terms of looks
and i think garnitures could also feature a number of differenthelmets and helmet accesories.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O78115/design/
put simply a garniture was a grouping of variousreinforcing pieces and interchangable elements for a field armour permitting ifferent combitiosforspcific functions
as the othes will tell you, a garniture simply meansyou have, on top of the basic full harness you have extra bits that let you customise your armour for different purposes you could attatch a jousting reinforce,
remember the aforementiond garniture of the earl of cumberland, as mentioned, not only did the garniture feature falling buffs forhelmets, and a reinforce for jousting, but in that case also featured a mtching shaffron for his horse, and even a vamplate for his lances, by matching in this case i mean motly in an aesthetic sense because all of the garniture was made wth all the pces being blued and gilt in matching patterns
http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-t...s/40002158
maybe youll decide to wear a falling buff on your burgonet one day, and another day attatch a barred openwork isor, another day wear a close helm.
a garniture in theory could also nclude matching armour for your horse such as shaffrons, even stirrups and saddle plates
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Joshua Santana
Location: Bayville, NJ Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon 28 May, 2012 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | put simply a garniture was a grouping of variousreinforcing pieces and interchangable elements for a field armour permitting ifferent combitiosforspcific functions
as the othes will tell you, a garniture simply meansyou have, on top of the basic full harness you have extra bits that let you customise your armour for different purposes you could attatch a jousting reinforce,
remember the aforementiond garniture of the earl of cumberland, as mentioned, not only did the garniture feature falling buffs forhelmets, and a reinforce for jousting, but in that case also featured a mtching shaffron for his horse, and even a vamplate for his lances, by matching in this case i mean motly in an aesthetic sense because all of the garniture was made wth all the pces being blued and gilt in matching patterns |
This is helpful, however my original design for my Hard Kit is geared toward the battlefield. I like the Garniture idea however I need to be careful in what I invest.
Allow me to go down the list:
1. 16th Century Kit - circa 1570 1580
2. Hard Kit is a Potential Garniture geared towards Battlefield and Tourney (Still looking at a Half Harness)
3. Soft Kit is a Elizabethan Era Courtier type (with the peascod doublet)
4. Only question is what did 1534 - 1535 - 1536 Armor look like?
(Examples please)
So far so good with the Designing of this Kit. I am going down the list as to help me when other people ask these questions I'm asking.
I will let you know what I come up with. Thank you.
Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio
Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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David Evans
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Adam D. Kent-Isaac
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| Posted: Mon 28 May, 2012 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Joshua Santana wrote: |
4. Only question is what did 1534 - 1535 - 1536 Armor look like?
(Examples please)
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Here's a painting showing an early Greenwich armor:
(Carew was later executed by Henry VIII.) Full version of the image here
Another here:
There are some similarities with the later Greenwich armors but these earlier ones, made during the time of Henry VIII, usually had winged pauldrons and lacked the "Peascod" breastplate shape of later armors.
Pastime With Good Company
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Joshua Santana
Location: Bayville, NJ Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue 29 May, 2012 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That I like. That is, at heart, a garniture. The breast plate has a lance rest on the right side. I'd suspect that the visable breastplate is a placket, on top of another plate. Most of the face, or buffe, of the helmet is removable. |
That is what I figured out when I found it. That is what I had in originally in my mind in which I confused by no tassets or leg harness.
Now I understand, thank you. This helps a lot, now I'm getting the entire picture (the blurb did help a great deal).
| Quote: | | There are some similarities with the later Greenwich armors but these earlier ones, made during the time of Henry VIII, usually had winged pauldrons and lacked the "Peascod" breastplate shape of later armors. |
Ah, I see, I'm more interested in wingless pauldrons and Peascod Breastplates, so I am content with 1570-1580 armor.
Ok, now that my questions are answered here is my Kit design re done.
Firstly the Soft Kit is going to be from Tudor Tailors, I chose their Elizabethan Men's Peascod Doublet, Trunkhose, shoes are from Sarah Juniper (the Tudor T/3), Hat, sword belt, cod piece will be announced when I find them.
Lastly the Hard Kit, I will be starting off with a Half Harness for now, later on, I will add the rest of it to create a full harness then I will add an extra Peascod Breast and Back Plate without Tassets, a second pair of 16th Century Gauntlets and a Close Helm in addition to the Armet Helmet posted below. I thank you for your help, it was tremendously helpful.
(Without Hault Guards)
Later on.............
(one item I forgot to mention)
I am almost convinced to order the full harness and add the extra pieces, but I will start with just the half-harness to save money and time.
I will keep looking for gauntlets will post them as time goes on.
Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio
Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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Dan Rosen
Location: Providence Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Tue 29 May, 2012 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Firstly the Soft Kit is going to be from Tudor Tailors, I chose their Elizabethan Men's Peascod Doublet, Trunkhose, shoes are from Sarah Juniper (the Tudor T/3), Hat, sword belt, cod piece will be announced when I find them. |
Don't worry about the codpiece. By the 1570's-1580's they were becoming majorly out of fashion and in any case were an integral part of the hose (breeches) themselves.
For your sword belt, Karl Robinson, Tod's Stuff, Richard Lanni, Tattershall Arms (he uses Lanni parts), and Arms & Armor all offer nice products, Karl, Tod, and Arms & Armor especially. The most reasonable way to do it would be to get parts from Lanni (beautiful castings in brass, bronze, and silver taken from extant pieces) or Darkwood Armoury (theirs are pretty roughly cast and would take some elbow grease to clean them up) and make your own. Two J's in the UK makes a solid hanger as well for a very reasonable price, but their parts are cut from steel and brass rather than cast or forged, so are for the most part flat. They generally have the right profile, but shouldn't be flat.
Your plan for the doublet, trunkhose, and shoes seems solid. Keep us posted on the materials and trimmings (buttons, etc.) you wish to use as well. Sarah Juniper's the best out there. Let her know what you're after and she'll set you up fantastically.
-Dan Rosen
"One day there will be no more frontier, and men like you will go too."
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Joshua Santana
Location: Bayville, NJ Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Wed 30 May, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Don't worry about the codpiece. By the 1570's-1580's they were becoming majorly out of fashion and in any case were an integral part of the hose (breeches) themselves. |
That is good then.
| Quote: | | For your sword belt, Karl Robinson, Tod's Stuff, Richard Lanni, Tattershall Arms (he uses Lanni parts), and Arms & Armor all offer nice products, Karl, Tod, and Arms & Armor especially. The most reasonable way to do it would be to get parts from Lanni (beautiful castings in brass, bronze, and silver taken from extant pieces) or Darkwood Armoury (theirs are pretty roughly cast and would take some elbow grease to clean them up) and make your own. Two J's in the UK makes a solid hanger as well for a very reasonable price, but their parts are cut from steel and brass rather than cast or forged, so are for the most part flat. They generally have the right profile, but shouldn't be flat. |
Thank you for the recommendations.
| Quote: | | Your plan for the doublet, trunkhose, and shoes seems solid. Keep us posted on the materials and trimmings (buttons, etc.) you wish to use as well. Sarah Juniper's the best out there. Let her know what you're after and she'll set you up fantastically. |
I intend to purchase the patterns and have a professional seamstress make it to exact specifications. Thank you all for your help. It is most helpful, I will post my Soft and Hard Kit in the future including the Garniture. Keep an eye on this thread in the future, this is where I will post the photos.
Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio
Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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David Gaál
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| Posted: Wed 30 May, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Much had been thought about design, but what about the steel?
Steel quality gives a huge difference between armour and armour and what about thickness? These are also important questions as well as in Use and as in Price and as in Historical Accuracy!
Dávid
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Joshua Santana
Location: Bayville, NJ Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Wed 30 May, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Much had been thought about design, but what about the steel?
Steel quality gives a huge difference between armour and armour and what about thickness? These are also important questions as well as in Use and as in Price and as in Historical Accuracy! |
You raise good questions and here is what I have to say.
Concerning Steel and Steel thickness: Illusion Armoring can make the Hard Kit parts in 20g to 12g steel. I am seeking 20g Stainless Steel which is to my knowledge slightly stronger than mild steel. I intend to order the steel in a semi-bright finish. I have been advised to go for the lowest finish to help reduce overall cost.
Concerning Price: I am seeking to spend $2,000 to $4,000. I am looking at getting the half harness (which is an estimated $2,500) either by November of this year or May of next year.
Concerning Historical Accuracy: I intend to make the overall Kit to be accurate with a few exceptions, no etching and no tournament pieces for my Kit. Those are the exceptions because I want my Kit to be a Garniture of a Tourney/Foot Barrier Armor and Battlefield Armor.
I hope this helps in clarifying my intentions with the creation of this Kit.
Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio
Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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David Gaál
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| Posted: Wed 30 May, 2012 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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One question I left out:
As it is going on about the end of the 16th century what about the gorget?
Dávid
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Joshua Santana
Location: Bayville, NJ Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Thu 31 May, 2012 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As it is going on about the end of the 16th century what about the gorget? |
The Armet Helmet and the Close Helmet from Illusion has an attached gorget which eliminates the cost of adding a secondary gorget. However if I need one, please let me know.
Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio
Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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Joshua Santana
Location: Bayville, NJ Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jun, 2012 8:57 am Post subject: |
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One thing that I have neglected was the updated design of the Soft Kit, shown here.
Peascod Doublet & Trunkhose Pants; Tudor Tailor. I will see if Jessica Finley would be interested in this project and she would be the first one I would contact in terms of getting these items done with historical accuracy.
Shoes: Sarah Juniper (Tudor T3)
Now this is the part I need help in clarification.
I noticed this when looked at the Medieval Chauses (Extreme Left).
After comparing this to the Battle of Lepanto portrait and to this photo.
http://tudorgroup.co.uk/Galleries/Posh/Posh_1.html
My question is this: Can the chauses be worn past knee length with the boots? Or do I need Hose Pants and use the chauses and the boots for the rest of the pants?
Hard Kit update: The Close Helm will not be ordered since the leg harness, Peascod Breast and Back Plates without Tassets will be sufficient (budget wise). The Munition Gauntlets are out of the picture and I am looking for historically accurate gauntlets.
Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio
Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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Dan Rosen
Location: Providence Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jun, 2012 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | My question is this: Can the chauses be worn past knee length with the boots? Or do I need Hose Pants and use the chauses and the boots for the rest of the pants? |
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Are you wondering about the white band on the thighs of the guy in black?
The cloth hose (chausses, a Medieval word) are your stockings, though you might have a white linen pair underneath them for ease of washing, so you'd have your trunkhose (pants) over them and put on the shoes as usual. What the guy in black probably has going is white under hose (like wearing an undershirt under a dress shirt) or possibly canions; extensions of the trunkhose that are usually made from the same material or at least something visually related. Another possibility that they're his drawers and the stockings have just slipped down, but less likely.
-Dan Rosen
"One day there will be no more frontier, and men like you will go too."
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David Gaál
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2012 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Joshua Santana wrote: | | The Armet Helmet and the Close Helmet from Illusion has an attached gorget which eliminates the cost of adding a secondary gorget. However if I need one, please let me know. |
The gorget is the main defense, the neck lames on the armet are secondary. There are only a few full or half armours which I have seen from the end 16th and early 17th century which don't have gorget. If the armet has neck lames it is possible to use simple gorget without neck lames but with it it's possible too. It's advantageous against the upwards thrusting which could go under the neck lames of the armet.
| Joshua Santana wrote: | | Concerning Historical Accuracy: I intend to make the overall Kit to be accurate with a few exceptions, no etching |
Don't worry there is not one armour without etching or gilding. Maximilian style armour is famous for the fluted design but there exists Grotesque and Plain(without fluted decoration) Maximilian too.
One observation about the Illusion Armouring backplate which you have posted: if I have seen well the neck part is not rolled!
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Joshua Santana
Location: Bayville, NJ Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The cloth hose (chausses, a Medieval word) are your stockings, though you might have a white linen pair underneath them for ease of washing, so you'd have your trunkhose (pants) over them and put on the shoes as usual. What the guy in black probably has going is white under hose (like wearing an undershirt under a dress shirt) or possibly canions; extensions of the trunkhose that are usually made from the same material or at least something visually related. Another possibility that they're his drawers and the stockings have just slipped down, but less likely. |
My question better phrased is this: Is it correct to add hose pants in conjunction with the chauses or should I use the canions and chauses together?
Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio
Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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Glennan Carnie
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2012 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Joshua Santana wrote: | | Quote: | | The cloth hose (chausses, a Medieval word) are your stockings, though you might have a white linen pair underneath them for ease of washing, so you'd have your trunkhose (pants) over them and put on the shoes as usual. What the guy in black probably has going is white under hose (like wearing an undershirt under a dress shirt) or possibly canions; extensions of the trunkhose that are usually made from the same material or at least something visually related. Another possibility that they're his drawers and the stockings have just slipped down, but less likely. |
My question better phrased is this: Is it correct to add hose pants in conjunction with the chauses or should I use the canions and chauses together? |
This question still doesn't make any sense.
Basically, forget chausses (the old French word for hose). As a late 16th Century gentlemen you would most likely wear knitted silk stockings covering your lower legs.
Covering your upper legs would be some form of breeches. The gentry, as fashion dictated, wore outrageously stuffed, padded, slashed or paned breeches with various names - trunkhose, roundhose, paned hose, etc.
Trunk hose were commonly quite short, no longer than mid-thigh. Canions were tight-fitting 'cuffs' joined to the trunkhose commonly extending from the bottom of the trunkhose to just above the knee. Canions are optional - some trunkhose had them, some didn't; but they certainly weren't worn on their own!
I'd highly recommend getting yourself a copy of The Tudor Tailor by Ninya Mikhaila. She explains all the basic terminology of the clothing. Also, look at the galleries on her website (http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/c16th.htm) for examples of trunkhose with, and without, canions. You could do far worse than replicating one of those suits.
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Dan Rosen
Location: Providence Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2012 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Are your sabatons going to be pointed? Posting this on the fly, so I'm not able to grab any images, but I think you'll want something a bit rounder for late 16th century wear.
-Dan Rosen
"One day there will be no more frontier, and men like you will go too."
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Joshua Santana
Location: Bayville, NJ Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jun, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The gorget is the main defense, the neck lames on the armet are secondary. There are only a few full or half armours which I have seen from the end 16th and early 17th century which don't have gorget. If the armet has neck lames it is possible to use simple gorget without neck lames but with it it's possible too. It's advantageous against the upwards thrusting which could go under the neck lames of the armet. |
I see your point, very well then, I will add a neck gorget to make thing safe and complete.
| Quote: | This question still doesn't make any sense.
Basically, forget chausses (the old French word for hose). As a late 16th Century gentlemen you would most likely wear knitted silk stockings covering your lower legs.
Covering your upper legs would be some form of breeches. The gentry, as fashion dictated, wore outrageously stuffed, padded, slashed or paned breeches with various names - trunkhose, roundhose, paned hose, etc.
Trunk hose were commonly quite short, no longer than mid-thigh. Canions were tight-fitting 'cuffs' joined to the trunkhose commonly extending from the bottom of the trunkhose to just above the knee. Canions are optional - some trunkhose had them, some didn't; but they certainly weren't worn on their own!
I'd highly recommend getting yourself a copy of The Tudor Tailor by Ninya Mikhaila. She explains all the basic terminology of the clothing. Also, look at the galleries on her website (http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/c16th.htm) for examples of trunkhose with, and without, canions. You could do far worse than replicating one of those suits. |
Thank you, your answer answered my question and I will be content with working with wool stockings and the canions after looking at the galleries at Tudor Tailor. Thank you, much appreciated.
| Quote: | | Are your sabatons going to be pointed? Posting this on the fly, so I'm not able to grab any images, but I think you'll want something a bit rounder for late 16th century wear. |
I noticed that and I will be looking for rounded sabatons, this will be ordered later on after the Half-Harness is complete. As of now looking for sabatons proper and gauntlets proper to late 16th Century.
| Quote: | | Don't worry there is not one armour without etching or gilding. Maximilian style armour is famous for the fluted design but there exists Grotesque and Plain(without fluted decoration) Maximilian too. |
That is good although I am not going for Maximillian armor, rather a Half Harness that would have been used in Tourney and Battlefield. Later on it will be a Garniture with full leg harness, gauntlets and sabatons. Mind you that I am not ordering Tournament pieces.
| Quote: | | One observation about the Illusion Armouring backplate which you have posted: if I have seen well the neck part is not rolled! |
Illusion offers rolling for the Breast and Back Plates and since you have brought it up, I will ordered the Breast and Back Plates to be rolled.
Honorare scutum meum, Veritas mea gladio
Honor my shield, Truth my sword
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