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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > A correlation between blade length and men tallness? Reply to topic
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2012 4:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
But the *classic* Roman legionary, the guy we think of from Marius to Hadrian, was a swordsman.


Heh. Heh. Don't tempt me to bring up the ongoing debate about the relative importance of the pila and the sword, because (in my experience) it's never going to end....
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2012 7:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
Ryan S. wrote:
did the Roman's ever not use spears?


A lot of Roman troops of various sorts used spears over time. Most legionaries used javelins and swords from around 500 BC to around 200 AD (I think!). Not *all*, mind you--for a long time the triarii still used spears, up to about 100 BC. And auxiliaries (infantry and cavalry) typically used spears. But the *classic* Roman legionary, the guy we think of from Marius to Hadrian, was a swordsman.

Plus I wasn't bothering to bring spears into the mix cuz the original question was about sword length!

Matthew

i feel disinclined to call the pilum a 'spear' because being thrown at people is its primary use to the point that, if ive heard correctly,its slightly ill suited to stabbing people since that thin iron shank makes it easier to be bent and warped in close quarters combat..
i mean it can do the job in a pinch certainly (and i remember hearing on myArmoury they helped drive off parthian horsemen at cahrrae) but its not as durable i hear, compared to a leaf bladed spearhead for example.
and being a stabbing melee spear isnt its primary function. id be more inclined to call it a big dart..
that being said theres something about the pilum that makes it very scary to me, the idea that. its design is o hit a shield, punch through, and use the long iron shank to kill the guy standing BEHIND it.. tha to me is a scary concept that your enemy has a weapon that, will still likely keep going and cant be blocked by your shield. because it will either drag you to the ground , lodge in your shield, or kill you outright.. is a frightening idea because suddenly, your shield cant neccesarily be trusted to keep you safe.

that being said its a common idea that ive heard a few times that when on urban duty, legionaries would swap their pilum for a spear whether its true or not is another matter entirely
but my reading of books on the romans seem to class the classic stabbing spear as the weapon of more
A urban guards
B auxiliary troops either cavalry or infantry..
btw im talking about the CLASSIC roman legionary i.e 1st cenury BC- 3rd century AD or something like that


but its the last ill say o not drag the topic from the original topic of swords. except to say that as was menioned, the gladius was short because of the reasons stated a few times,

i mean whiile deadliest warrior is wrong on many levels it showed how a gladius can clealy chop off a wrist and disembowel you without any problems. so its not eexactly lacking in the hack and slash department ( i also heard that during the macedonian/ roman wars, stories of gladii dismembering the pikemen i.e cutting arms hands etc off. ).. but its shortness seems to have been so that you can fight in a tight space get in someones face so that your shield gets in the way of their weapon, and then thrust away.. it also encourages you to be aggressive. which worked i think..
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2012 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
Matthew Amt wrote:
A lot of Roman troops of various sorts used spears over time. Most legionaries used javelins and swords from around 500 BC to around 200 AD (I think!). Not *all*, mind you--for a long time the triarii still used spears, up to about 100 BC. And auxiliaries (infantry and cavalry) typically used spears. But the *classic* Roman legionary, the guy we think of from Marius to Hadrian, was a swordsman.

Plus I wasn't bothering to bring spears into the mix cuz the original question was about sword length!

Matthew


i feel disinclined to call the pilum a 'spear'...


Oh, I wasn't! It's a javelin. No, I meant literal spears, though for the Romans many of those were also meant for throwing as well as thrusting--the lancea is often shown with a throwing loop.


Quote:
that being said theres something about the pilum that makes it very scary to me, the idea that. its design is o hit a shield, punch through, and use the long iron shank to kill the guy standing BEHIND it.. tha to me is a scary concept that your enemy has a weapon that, will still likely keep going and cant be blocked by your shield.


Agreed! I threw my pilum right through a scutum once, and it *split* the wooden post the shield was leaning against. And I'm an office jockey, with no athletic inclination at all! It was freaky.

Quote:
that being said its a common idea that ive heard a few times that when on urban duty, legionaries would swap their pilum for a spear whether its true or not is another matter entirely


Hmm, possibly but I don't recall anything like that. I'd suspect that swords would be adequate, and I believe there are accounts of soldiers carrying clubs when patrolling streets or on riot duty. (At least once that involved STARTING the riot, so that the cavalry could come in fully armed and mop up! Doncha just love those wacky Romans?)

Quote:
i mean whiile deadliest warrior is wrong on many levels it showed how a gladius can clealy chop off a wrist and disembowel you without any problems. so its not eexactly lacking in the hack and slash department ( i also heard that during the macedonian/ roman wars, stories of gladii dismembering the pikemen i.e cutting arms hands etc off. ).. but its shortness seems to have been so that you can fight in a tight space get in someones face so that your shield gets in the way of their weapon, and then thrust away.. it also encourages you to be aggressive. which worked i think..


Exactly. In fact I was just terrorizing some third-graders a couple days ago in that very way! I can beat up kids half my size.

Matthew
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Marcos Cantu





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ryan S. wrote:
I thought the change in length from the gladius and other classical swords to the longer European swords was mostly technological. After all, the longer the blade, the farther away you can stab your enemy from. I would imagine if there was some correlation between sword length and height, it would be best to look for within sword types. So instead of asking did Vikings used longer swords then Romans because Vikings are taller, ask did taller Vikings have longer swords?


the first variant of the gladius the romans used was the gladius hispaniensis, which had a blade length of about 27". it was later that they brought the blade down to 20"
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