[Randall Moffett]

Mackenzie,

The Iron production issue does not work that way. The issue is getting -plates for a full breatplate not one that is slightly larger than the other ones.

The issue is if you take wisby out of the equation all we have left in the 14th century is horizontal plates. As well in art that we have of the period most COPs on men at arms are also horizontal. The issue is there is 0 evidence for men at arms by the 1340s in vertical COPs. Not if we assume the men-at-arms were in the state of the art armour the debate seems to follow the evidence to horizontal COPs being the more modern.

I am not sure one could make the tie to Churburg 13. Just too different, 13 is more a full one shaped breastplate just with more parts. Most of the COPs of this nature are lightly shaped.

RPM

[Kel Rekuta]

I've skimmed this thread a couple times during the week but none of you seem to be aware that Scandinavian armour was always influenced by Eastern European examples as much as Northern European fashion. Much of their trade, especially the Gotlanders, was along the eastern shores of the Baltic not with Germany, Denmark and the Low Countries let alone France or Italy. The Hansa had that trade locked down and the town of Wisby was one of their centers.

Why spend so much time comparing the Wisby finds with what was just out of fashion in Flanders or Bavaria?
Just look at the Bodlean MS 264 "Romance of Alexander." The king and his followers are wearing the height of military fashion in a document dated to around 1344. That those fashions persisted on noble effigies for the next twenty years across Western Europe also refutes the "outdated armour" concept of the Visby finds. Concentrating on the best plate examples in the finds and relegating the balance as "poor folk armour" is simply misinformed.

The Rus, Poles and other Baltic peoples did not abandon lamellar armour construction as early as did the West of Europe. Vertical plates on armours from the Rus in the north to the Turks in the south of near Asia are readily found well into the fourteenth century if not later. Should it surprise you that people trading with them or taking military contracts with near Asian leaders might also retain those armour styles?

One last thing for Mackenzie. A careful study of the in situ sketches of the Wisby #7 armour makes it easy to see the buckle belongs in the center of the back. Also, the great diagonal crack across the right chest makes it pretty clear why that armour was discarded. The interesting question is: was the man in that armour mounted and felled by some sort of staff weapon? Of was he unmounted and felled by a gigantic sword blow from above? I built and wear that particular armour in full contact rebated steel combat. I've never received a dent in that direction in years of foot combat. There had to have been a height disparity for that blow angle to happen.

Happy weekend folks!

[Randall Moffett]

Kel,

Unaware no, but I would not over estimate the influence of the East on Scandinavia or anywhere really, nor do I see the evidence that way at Wisby. Even David Nicolle, our great eastern loving friend has not been so sure. If you look at the gear recovered few of them show a strong link that limits it eastward origin- besides the lamellar and the thing was not even used as lamellar as it was in the east. Hardly seems to show strong ties to eastern Europe or further. None of the COPs at Wisby have a stronger relation to eastern ones I have seen, all appear they could very well be of western or central European origins. I would of course never say there was none but to say they were largely, mostly or always influenced by the east seems far fetched or a gross exaggeration. Especially if your argument simply rests on trade. As Trade does not translate to military culture so easily.

Now I might be reading you wrong but looks like you are saying the Gotlanders and to a larger extent the Hanse did not trade on a large scale with Germany, Denmark and West/Central Europe.... which is odd as some Hanse towns were what was the Empire. The Hanse had posts all over as well. They had them in England in York, London and at times in Southampton and Berwick. Norwich has some men called easterners there but I am not sure they are official Hanse but I believe many claim that is the case. In fact the town ledgers of Southampton even include some shady dealing with the Hanse which seem to have turned out bad with a Hanse fleet parked in Southampton Waters till they were paid off to leave. Many years seems Cologne, London and Bruges often seem to have been some of the wealthiest of their trading ports. I do not think one can claim they were more tied one side to the other for trade.

That said trading partners does not mean they got their military culture there. Military traditions are only in part based on trade. Much of Denmark seems very much to have equipment nearly the same as the Empire from the art and few inventories I have seen. The Scandinavian kings mirrors I have seen all include similar armaments to what was used in West or Central Europe at the time as well. Norway had major trade with England and Scotland as well so why assume that since they traded with the Baltic area they were not influenced elsewhere as well. Hull had several periods of the year when Scandinavians came and sold wares there in town. Largely fish and raw materials but trade was by no means only with the east in Scandinavia.

Considering the Romance largely shows the medium to thin horizontal types of COPs I am looking to not sure why one could use these as evidence for narrow vertical plated. The two types I remember are the long horizontal ones that seem to cross the entire front or back and the type with a number of wide and fat plates going horizontal much like the other but segmented. None are the tall vertical plates I was stating seem out dated, nor the massive thick horizontal ones either. Romance Of Alex f.51v. shows exactly what I am talking about.
http://image.ox.ac.uk/show?collection=bodleia...=msbodl264

Since state of the art is what the elite would be wearing why should we not think the others were no longer state of the art if they were not being worn by them? If we have 0 evidence to show the continued use of these types by the elites seems we have no where else to go. All the art I know of in Western and Central Europe, even to the fringe of Eastern Europe shows this transition by mid 14th. As I said earlier I think some of the Wisby finds were outdated while some were more recent. Since I think very few men of high means were present on the Gotlander side at the battle this makes sense. Seems most of the townsmen were in the town walls and the nobles that should have protected them tool a pass.

Of course if he wants to do a non-knightly persona these all would clearly work. Heck I use vertical plate COPs for mid 14th personas all the time but I think the evidence shows COPs like the Kussnach and Hirshstein are the state of the art types in much of Western and Central Europe at the time and more likely to be used by the Knightly class. Now for Eastern hard to say. Those I know of are often more akin to a scale like COP, such as the Tana COP but still have plates that tend to be wider than taller, once again the long tall plates seemingly less popular, though it may have been the continued use of lamellar and scale that made such COPs seems superfluous.

If you have evidence to the contrary I would love to see it though.

RPM

[Kel Rekuta]

Randall,

You missed the point. The Gotlanders and the citizens of Wisby were not a united populace. The townsfolk were Hansa, which as you know were viciously protective of their trades and trading partners. The Gotlanders were not Hansa, they were vaguely citizens of a remote and ineffectual Swedish monarchy. They were fairly wealthy, semi-autonomous farmers and traders. Limited land to cultivate left them the common Scandinavian option of sea trade but not those opportunities already locked down by the Hansa. By comparison to the trade of Wisby, theirs' was quite small and always east and north. Similarly, military employment for those Gotlanders without expectation of land ownership was similarly available through the same contacts in the east and north. Reread Thordeman's work, this is discussed within. Further study of significant rivalries in Baltic trade supports his limited discussion of the matter. Again, there was plenty of military opportunity in the Baltic during the fourteenth century. That infrequently discussed topic of the Northern Crusades is a treasure shallowly mined in English speaking historical communities. Ask Jean Henri Chandler.

I am not arguing that the entire military equipment of the Gotlanders was obtained wholesale from the near East. Nor would I deny that some of the "lamellar" finds appear to have been remounted in a different fashion than they must have been originally. My disagreement is with the perpetual chestnut that the Gotlanders had armour that was decades out of fashion. Thordeman discusses possible reasons the most current Western armours do not appear in the gravefinds. Subsequent and admittedly cursory study of near Eastern armour of the period provides similar examples of horizontal plate arrangements well past the time horizontal plates were the norm in Western European plate assemblies.

As to David Nicolle, I generally can't be bothered with him unless he is discussing the Crusades in the Levant. I don't recall him commenting on Wisby finds though. I have no doubt that he would add it to his list of things Europeans mimicked from the Arab and Persian peoples.

[Mikael Ranelius]

[Randall Moffett]

Kel,

I just reread Wisby about four months ago and reread the related material tonight. Thordmann seems fairly clear that by the 14th century Germanic and Swedish influence was growing in Gotland, he mentions very little actual eastern influence from what I can see in the general culture or politics or armour sections later in the books. I am largely looking at 11-12 and 15 but the entire section seems to indicate they were more and more like the rest of mainstream Scandinavia which he indicates was following mostly western trends.

As well I am not seeing much about the rural folk being as a whole wealthy. In fact the wealth discrepancy seems to be an key issue between the rural and urban Gotlanders. Thordmann indicating this conflict grew over the mid 13th to mid 14th because of this increasing wealth and independence. He does mention there being a few farmer-manors/chieftain dwellings but does not seem to state these types of men were the norm on the island but the local leadership.

I am not seeing anything to make me think eastern over western military gear here.

RPM

[Mackenzie Cosens]

[Kel Rekuta]

[Randall Moffett]

Kel,

No one is arguing they were not in use, only they were older versions. Just because something is old does not mean it is discarded. I drive a car that is over ten years old in part because I cannot afford something that is state of the art but also because I like the car and it works fine for all my uses. For a professional race car driver this would never do as they constantly are updating but for me and my needs not an issue. It gets me around and is as fuel efficient as many cars on the road but it is still not new. Medieval people in general were likely more like this than we are, especially the non-knightly class. They were not full time soldiers or did they have a high demand to be in the state of the art armour only something that worked.

I think Type I generally would still have been in production so to speak during the 3rd quarter of the 14th century. That said I think Thordmann Type I is too general as we see the development of two groups inside it. One with massive wide plates and another with medium to thin plates. They are similar but the later development looks much more advanced and shows up into the 2nd half of the 14th while the wide horizontal ones do not seem to.

I think Types II to IV were less likely to be in large scale production if they were not discontinued versions as I have seen little to 0 evidence for its use in art or elsewhere to show it was still in use. My guess is the better part of a half century out of date by Wisby, perhaps 1320s or earlier, which coincides with the last known evidence I have seen of long vertical plates.

[Kel Rekuta]

[Gary Teuscher]

What is interesting to me is that I beleive we have evidence of the COP worn over mail, perhaps this gives rise to the thought of lammelar being worn over mail of which it seems we do not have evidence of.

the COP was used as a protection on it's own as well, was it not? I.E. worn by itself, not over mail.

[Randall Moffett]

Kel,

You're telling me. My wife just had our third child last week, I just finished grading around 100 undergrad finals and I am taking care of our other kids and even cooking.... those who know me well, know the last being the most scary and surprising.

I agree Thordmann has limits. But I was only responding with his work as that was what you had mentioned earlier. In fact I read a fair number of books on the Hanse when I did my PhD as Southampton because it was a major trading port and I wanted to follow it out. In part this is why I am not so confident in the assumption the Gotlanders could have been outside western influence. I think considering the high volume of trade from all over Europe in the area this is impossible.

One issue is even if there was bad blood between townsmen and the rural peoples money is money. I had studied illegal arms trade in some ways between England and France and Scotland during the 100 Years War and found even with the kings and nobles trying to keep arms and armour in country for their use in war- and from enemies- and made it illegal with horrid punishments this was still a big money maker. There is no way the Hanse were not trading with the Gotlanders. As well with the German and German influenced towns operating in Baltic trade. Money is money and men will buy what suits them and if there is coin to be found some one will risk the sale. And as we see even in a time much more able to deal with this completely stopping illicit trade is nearly impossible.

Now as to the rural peoples wealth. I am not arguing anything on this level only stating what the consensus is on their situation as I am seeing it. First I never said they were backwater. Never once- promise. You said "They were fairly wealthy". There is a difference between poor or poorer than and backwater. One often is poor if backwater but not per se do all poor have to be backwater, I think the reverse can be true as well.

I simply stated that the population of wealthy farmers and their betters was quite small according to Thordmann on Gotland and perception of their possible impact due to small numbers and limited resources. Those who are fairly wealthy were few in view of the majority. I see this as a limit of them owning what was state of the art just as it was in some places all over Europe in Scotland, France and otherwise.

Honestly I am not arguing there was not Eastern influence for the rural peoples only that one cannot exclude western influence either, nor the trends taking place there.

RPM

[Mikael Ranelius]

On the matter of the economic situation on Gotland the rural population experienced a decline during the first half of the 14th century, primarily caused by German/Hansa competition and the Black Death which struck the island in 1350, wiping out nearly half the population and seriously disrupting foreign trade. At the time of the Danish invasion, the Gutes had already put to a halt their ambitious church and manor-building projects which had been going on since the 1100s. I think it is unlikely that the Gutes invested in armour and weapons at that time.

Still the Gutes really stand out by the fact that they produced a wealthy merchant-farming class, whose most successful members could profit enough from overseas-trade to build quite impressive manors in stone. This was virtually unheard of on the Swedish mainland, where even the knightly class often had to do with bigger versions of timber farmhouses to serve as their dwellings.

[Kel Rekuta]

Randall,

First off, congrats on the birth of your third child. Children are literally our future and for most people a blessing. Good luck with the cooking... practice makes perfect.

The rest you wrote is very true but a bit off the mark. Mikael added some very helpful insights in his latest post that follow where I was going in my argument. I have no doubt the "Gutes" (thanks Mikael!) traded with the city to some extent and wherever else they could nearby. However, it had to be more along the lines of smuggling than open trade near any Hansa city on the mainland. Your studies of the Hansa should have given you the impression, as they have me, that the Hanseatic League could have tutored nineteenth century oil and railway barons in sharp business practice. Their extensive power was amply demonstrated shortly after the sack of Wisby by a Hansa fleet invading Denmark and humiliating Waldemar in his home ground.

My initial post was spurred by William P's last post in the thread, which I found uninformed and prejudiced without cause. The attitude implied is in no way uncommon but as this is an educational site, worthy of rebuttal. Unfortunately you chose to find it directed at you, which it was not. Then the rock slide began....

I don't have the impression that Gutes had limited influence from Western Europe, as the church was central to their lives, as elsewhere. I am impressed by their need to find trade outside the reach of the Hansa, which is not an easy task in the Baltic of that period. Second and third sons of the more wealthy landowners had to go elsewhere with so little opportunity on Gotland. Near Asian outside the reach of Danzig and other Hanseatic outposts is the logical option. Trade in goods and military employment frequently follow the same paths.

Anyway, lunch is well past and business awaits.

Cheers!

[Randall Moffett]

Kel,

Works for me Kel. My only concern is that people will see that comment and think they were only influenced by the East and therefore dressing the same as a gent in 1361 in Vilnius, Sambia or the likes. The neat thing to me about the study of many of these areas is the degree of interaction and influence and how it creates unique and interesting cultures by combining so many different aspects of other cultures.

"Your studies of the Hansa should have given you the impression, as they have me, that the Hanseatic League could have tutored nineteenth century oil and railway barons in sharp business practice. "

This does indeed seem very true. I am always impressed by how far the reach of the Hanse was. I mentioned the story earlier regarding Southampton and I have to admit I was astounded the Hanse had the ability and the nerve to send a military fleet to the Southampton Water to press their influence there.

RPM

[Kel Rekuta]

[Craig Shackleton]

I'm reviving this topic to ask a few questions about the unique lamellar find at Wisby. I don't have the book(s) on the Wisby finds, and am somewhat reluctant to purchase it at this time for various reasons.

I've been reading various discussions of lamellar and scale armour, and I'm looking for some clarification. Since scale is not relevant to this thread, I'll leave it alone for now.

First off, is the lamellar find at Wisby singular? It is my understanding that the various CoPs were not necessarily (perhaps this is wrong) and even if each "type" actually represents only a single armour, there is a lot of similarity between them.

Was the lamellar found on a body? If so, was it worn over mail? I'd also like to revisit an earlier question from this thread. Are there examples from Wisby of CoPs worn without mail? I find it interesting that the reconstructions pictured on the Hoas Hantverk site show only the lamellar with mail.

I've read multiple times that the lamellar was similar to a find at Birka. The plates look significantly different to me. Are there more examples of "D" shaped lamellar plates elsewhere?

In this thread I read that the lamellar had been modified from its original form/use. In what way? Is there evidence that it was reassembled, or is it just differently assembled than its eastern equivalent?

Thanks for any insight into this.