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Aleksei Sosnovski





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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 5:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing your opinion, Emil. I will try our interpretation, however it seems somewhat questionable to me.

1) There are no hints to descending blows (in other places there are such as "talho to the shoulder" in the end of the first and the second rules or explicit "altibaxo" in some other rules).
2) After a descending revez you end up with the sword either in front of you on the ground or somewhere behind you (the "long tail" guard). From this position making the final talho to the shoulder is somewhat awkward. This final cut seems to be there only to bring the montante from high to low with some useful move so I don't think it would be there if the montante would already be low.

Second rule seems to make perfect sense if you make revez cuts with the true edge unlike the first rule. It is actually quite difficult to do with a long and heavy sword. However I haven't studied the whole manual so I don't know if Figueyredo uses revez cuts with both edges or only with the false edge like in the first rule. I also don't know how many places there are where a descending cut is the only reasonable interpretation yet the text has no hint on whether the cut is ascending or descending.
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Emil Andersson




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 5:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aleksei, I'm of the opinion that if a stroke is described as just a 'talho' or 'revez' with nothing else to it, then it is a descending strike. I don't think there's any mention of a cut going from high to low like there is from low to high. Anyway, I've seen the strike to the shoulder mentioned as a kind of ending flourish to be made while training (I think it was in a class handout for a seminar on the two-handed sword), just like kicking the sword to speed at the start of the first rule. Going by this, the cut to the shoulder could certainly come from the tail guard in order to end the rule.

Of course, these are just my own speculations. The descriptions really do leave quite a few variations to try out. Happy
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Patrick De Block




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Since the link is rather long, just write 'Portugese Montante rule 1' on YouTube.

To my mind rule 1s are rising cuts and rule 2s are descending cuts and in both you describe a figure 8.

As to where to stop the montante; as in school: what they tell you in the first lesson should be applied in the second as well.

Hope this helps.
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Vincent C




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When filming yourself doing the rules, are you going to be using that lutel two-hander of yours? Because I'm not sure how something that big translates with some of these rules (mostly the alleyway one).

I'd love to see that thing in motion though, not to mention how a zweihander translates for a montante.

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent C wrote:
When filming yourself doing the rules, are you going to be using that lutel two-hander of yours? Because I'm not sure how something that big translates with some of these rules (mostly the alleyway one).

I'd love to see that thing in motion though, not to mention how a zweihander translates for a montante.


I can do every Montante play with a 6 foot weapon or a 4 foot longsword. The old adage about the size not being what counts is particularly true with swordsmanship. Happy

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Matthew P. Adams




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick,

Those videos are invaluable! I'm trying to learn Montante, and while the two historic fencing clubs in my area have been very helpful and supportive, they both focus on earlier treatises.

I can't wait to get home on run through those drills!

Thank you VERY much!

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Emil Andersson




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent C wrote:
When filming yourself doing the rules, are you going to be using that lutel two-hander of yours?


Hello Vincent,

I'm actually using a montante trainer from A&A. I hope that's not a disappointment to you. Razz

The rules that I've been practicing so far I'm able to do with both the montante and the giant zweihander, although the montante feels much more suitable to me.

I'll be uploading video material of the first two rules in just a little while.

Edit: And here they are. The quality is what it is, and I had to stay after practice tonight in order to get enough room to shoot the footage - hence the lighting. Next time I'll try to be able to film earlier when there's still natural light.

Rule I
Rule II

Edit 2: You're free to follow the channel. I fully intend to go through all the 32 rules in order.
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Vincent C




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
I can do every Montante play with a 6 foot weapon or a 4 foot longsword. The old adage about the size not being what counts is particularly true with swordsmanship. Happy


I realize you can do that. I was interested in how it differs mechanically. To keep a 6 foot sword from dragging along the ground and walls in the alley way rules would be very different mechanically when the sword is the same size as you, which is what I meant.

I'm also not sure that the group combat drills would work with something the size of longsword, the purpose is to keep the enemy outside a bubble that's outside their striking distance, but inside yours. With the bigger longswords that might work, but you do need the sword to be a certain size for this to be effective. The parrying hooks on the larger blade also helps being able to manipulate the foe's blade to keep them out of striking range, while engaging them in yours, which is a saving feature when engaging someone with longsword when you have a montante.

To do the forms, you don't need a specific size, yes. But when implementing the forms, size does make a difference in the actions you take for a given purpose.

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent C wrote:
I realize you can do that. I was interested in how it differs mechanically.


But it doesn't really change very muchl. A little bit, sure, but not enough to cause any problems.

Quote:
To keep a 6 foot sword from dragging along the ground and walls in the alley way rules would be very different mechanically when the sword is the same size as you, which is what I meant.


Not very different. It's pretty easy to adapt. If you don't have a sword large enough, you can also buy a cheap 6 foot dowel rod to experiment. It may not be perfect, but you can get a feel for it.

Quote:
I'm also not sure that the group combat drills would work with something the size of longsword, the purpose is to keep the enemy outside a bubble that's outside their striking distance, but inside yours. With the bigger longswords that might work, but you do need the sword to be a certain size for this to be effective.


While I'm not arguing that a larger sword is more ideal for this, I can't agree that a longsword does not work for this. Longswords work quite well for this. I've done this for years in free play.

Quote:
The parrying hooks on the larger blade also helps being able to manipulate the foe's blade to keep them out of striking range, while engaging them in yours, which is a saving feature when engaging someone with longsword when you have a montante.


Actually, most Iberian swords don't have the parrying hooks. That is far more common with Italian and German swords, and even in those cultures they weren't universal.

Quote:
To do the forms, you don't need a specific size, yes. But when implementing the forms, size does make a difference in the actions you take for a given purpose.


Only somewhat (provided we aren't talking about extreme differences in sizes). A student practicing the forms should certainly practice with the intended weapon (the Montante), but I can't agree that a longsword or a larger two hander somehow can't do the same actions. None of these arts are quite so specific about their weapons. In fact, Marozzo, in teaching the Spadone (the Italian variation of what is more or less the exact same weapon) explicitly says that everything you do with single hand sword is also done with the two handed sword. Naturally, there are variations in body mechanics and distance, so you are absolutely right that you will need to adapt based on the circumstances. But I've done both Montante and Spadone for a number of years now, and have been doing longsword from the Liechtenauer school for close to two decades at this point, and have no problems adapting to a weapon that is slightly bigger or slightly smaller. Likewise, if you look at surviving examples of swords that would have been used for this system in period, you'll see quite a range of sizes, both bigger and smaller.

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"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Aleksei Sosnovski





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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil, thank you very much for the videos! Your interpretation indeed looks good. The only problem that I see is that you don't stop where you are explicitly told to do so. Don't know how important stopping the blows is, but probably the author wouldn't bother writing about it if it was not. Also stopping the weapon when performing full-force cuts with a heavy sword will teach a lot about weapon control. Anyway, looking forward to seeing the other rules performed by you.

Patrick De Block wrote:

To my mind rule 1s are rising cuts and rule 2s are descending cuts and in both you describe a figure 8.


Making a descending cut "such that the montante ends up with the point forward and the hands high in front of the eyes" (from the second rule) is somewhat problematic. If your hands are in front of your eyes, then your blade is above your opponent's head. Teaching somebody to stop his weapon before he actually hits his target is not a good idea, is it?
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Emil Andersson




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 2:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aleksei, where do you mean that I'm not stopping when I should? I end the ascending cuts with the points forward and the hands high in front of the eyes. Also, ascending cuts are much easier to stop when made with force, which is why I think they're suitable here. I'm open to negotiating, though. Happy

I hope I'll be able to film the third and fourth rules during practice tomorrow. I'll let you know.
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Aleksei Sosnovski





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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 4:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil Andersson wrote:

Edit: And here they are. The quality is what it is, and I had to stay after practice tonight in order to get enough room to shoot the footage - hence the lighting. Next time I'll try to be able to film earlier when there's still natural light.

Rule I
Rule II.


See video of rule 1 Happy You don't stop until the rule is completed, while Figueyredo tells you to stop after each cut.

As I wrote, your interpretation of rule 2 "indeed looks good". I can't find any flaw in it and will try doing it this way when I grab my zweihander next time.

Statement about ascending/discending cuts was directed to Patrick De Block whom I quoted in my previous post.
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Emil Andersson




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 4:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh right, sorry. I was assuming that you were talking about the second rule. You're right, I skipped the mentioned stops between cuts in the first rule. Perhaps I should make a clip where I put more emphasis on that, too.

Edit: In my defense, the first rule without stops is a very fluid motion when you get the hang of the ascending short edge cut. I quite like doing it. Happy
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Vincent C




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 6:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice videos!

That last talho to the shoulder is supposed to be a short Iberian salute though, not a full cut (I used to do the same thing Laughing Out Loud ). In rule two the sword isn't supposed to be so high with the point forward, the guard Figueryedo mentions is more similar to guardia di faccia, the sword is in front of the eyes, but pointing forward.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012 10:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil Andersson wrote:
Oh right, sorry. I was assuming that you were talking about the second rule. You're right, I skipped the mentioned stops between cuts in the first rule. Perhaps I should make a clip where I put more emphasis on that, too.

Edit: In my defense, the first rule without stops is a very fluid motion when you get the hang of the ascending short edge cut. I quite like doing it. Happy


Just speculation on my part since I'm not familiar with these techniques:

A) The stops between cuts are so that one doesn't get into the habit of flowing from one to the next cut without thinking.

B) Each cut could start from the end position of the previous cut and linking them together is a way of practicing all the cuts in a time efficient manner ..... I guess one could go to each starting position of each cut and just repeat this cut over and over again, and then going to the next and the next doing each a number of times?

C) Linking the cuts into a series, but with stops, may mean that if needed or a cut missed one might end up doing some or all the cuts in a continuous motion style like you show ..... but this in combat would depend on context maybe?

D) The weight and momentum of the weapon means that doing each cut separately would be more tiring and by linking them one learns to change the trajectory and orientation of the blade fluidly and also builds strength and control over starts and stops.

E) Some or all of the above? ( Or none if I'm completely wrong here. Wink Laughing Out Loud ).

By the way I really like the way you repeat each " rule " from a different angle relative to the camera: This really helps in seeing the whole of the motion repeated without having things not being visible or ambiguous due to perspective.

Not really easy to do without a second camera or some help, but a TOP VIEW would also be useful: I wish other training videos would give us these multiple angles.

You could also show these at full speed and done at a slow(er) speed.

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Aleksei Sosnovski





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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr, 2012 12:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Just speculation on my part since I'm not familiar with these techniques:

A) The stops between cuts are so that one doesn't get into the habit of flowing from one to the next cut without thinking.

B) Each cut could start from the end position of the previous cut and linking them together is a way of practicing all the cuts in a time efficient manner ..... I guess one could go to each starting position of each cut and just repeat this cut over and over again, and then going to the next and the next doing each a number of times?

C) Linking the cuts into a series, but with stops, may mean that if needed or a cut missed one might end up doing some or all the cuts in a continuous motion style like you show ..... but this in combat would depend on context maybe?

D) The weight and momentum of the weapon means that doing each cut separately would be more tiring and by linking them one learns to change the trajectory and orientation of the blade fluidly and also builds strength and control over starts and stops.

E) Some or all of the above? ( Or none if I'm completely wrong here. Wink Laughing Out Loud ).


I think you are absolutely right. In combat one usually can't decide what his next action would be until the current action is completed. Planning several strikes beforehand and executing them no matter what is a sure way to die in real combat. Also stopping ones weapon after each blow helps to reveal mistakes such as not extending ones hands (actually Emil in his videos seems to be making that exact mistake). While in real combat same blow may be executed with hands extended or hands close to the body depending on the situation, it is crucial to learn reaching as far as possible with ones weapon. I have seen many people who couldn't reach me because they kept their hands bent while I could reach them with the same weapon by executing the blows with my hands extended. Ironically my most common mistake when fighting with my zweihander against others (who usually happen to be armed with swords and shields) is essentially the same: not using the full reach of my weapon. Not because I don't extend my arms but because I am too used to a longsword and launch my attacks from a "longsword" distance.

Though I thinks it is a good idea to execute rules non-stop from time to time. Seamlessly transitioning from one blow to another is just as important as being able to stop at the end of the blow.
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Patrick De Block




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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr, 2012 11:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aleksei Sosnovski wrote:


Making a descending cut "such that the montante ends up with the point forward and the hands high in front of the eyes" (from the second rule) is somewhat problematic. If your hands are in front of your eyes, then your blade is above your opponent's head. Teaching somebody to stop his weapon before he actually hits his target is not a good idea, is it?


In front of the eyes or the face: if you take this too literal you're going to end in an awkward posture. Your shoulders are going to be stiff and that's not the way to do flowdrills.

Eric Meyers refers to the default posture of the LVD, the right angle and that's with a one-handed sword. Your arm and sword are actually at shoulder height. But you can say that your sword is in front of your face or your eyes.

When I do a rising cut my sword slopes downwards towards the opponent's face and with a falling cut my sword slopes upwards and although there's a difference in height as to where my hands are, they are in front of my face or my eyes.

As to stopping the sword before it hits. You first learn to cut the target (or stop the sword) at exactly the same point consistently. Then you learn 'to stop' the sword before its intended target and flow seamlessly into another cut. Or you learn both together. And I think that's the whole point behind the first five simple and complex rules, you keep moving your sword mainly along that figure 8. When you sense that your cut isn't going to connect, you void that cut and flow through the 8 into another one.
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Emil Andersson




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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr, 2012 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I want to thank you for all the feedback you've given me, guys. That's exactly what I was hoping to get out of my videos, with an added side of potentially sparking some discussion. Jean, I think I'll keep making the videos in the same format as they are for now. There'll be plenty of time to revisit them later, when I have had more practice and experience. Happy

I only managed to get the third rule on film today, but I made a few variations of it. Here's a link:

Rule III

Should I perhaps start a separate thread for my clips and comments?
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil Andersson wrote:
Jean, I think I'll keep making the videos in the same format as they are for now. There'll be plenty of time to revisit them later, when I have had more practice and experience. Happy



Just in case it wasn't obvious: I love the way you made the videos and the different views/angles. Big Grin Cool

The other suggestions are more for future additions that could be edited in later i.e. the top view for example.

By the way watching the Rule IIi video I noticed more that your execution speed is just low enough that it helps in following easily the motion as opposed to maximum speed where it might be just a blur.

The angle where you have your back to the camera is very useful and an angle almost never shown: I think this works so well because it's like the view in a " third person " video game and one can imagine oneself in the person doing the motion.

Anyway, the long and verbose way to say " Very Good ". Big Grin Cool

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Aleksei Sosnovski





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PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr, 2012 11:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil Andersson wrote:

I only managed to get the third rule on film today, but I made a few variations of it. Here's a link:
Rule III


And thanks again for the excellent video!

I think this format with several different interpretations is the best. You could also comment on what you think about each interpretation.

Out of the 3 interpretations the first one seems to be the best. In combat with zweihander I use this exact combination to displace an incoming downward cut with an ascending blow while standing still and then cut from above while moving forward chasing my opponent. The only difference is that I use false edge when displacing with revez. You make the ascending cut as an attack (striking too low for it to be a deflection) but it all depends on the situation. A similar combination that can be used in the same tactical situation would consist of two ascending cuts from the same side (also a possible interpretation for this rule).

The second interpretation would make much more sense if you would start from "vom tag". Attempting a descending cut from a "tail guard" in real combat will give you a disadvantage in speed against a similar weapon. But the cuts themselves are perfectly OK.

The 3rd combination seems to be the least probable. The reason is than when you make a block the sword is so close to you that a strong cut can displace your sword and reach you. You also sometimes end up with arms above your head and if your imaginary opponent aims at your head it's pretty obvious what will happen. My rule of thumb is to step sideways when making such blocks, but then you will hardly be able to step forward (I usually step diagonally forward and to the side when making such block and then when making a cut move my rear leg to the side to end up in a proper stance). Also you tend to block with your edge. One such block and you might end up with one edge of your sword blunt from the ricasso up to the point. Not a very big problem with a heavy weapon like montante but still not good. If your sword has a long ricasso and parrying lugs and you block with the ricasso it's another story though.
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