[Ken Jay]

[Glen A Cleeton]

[Justin King]

As far as I'm aware, there wasn't a "deal" going on about bare blades around the time of the "machines" sale...I had ordered bare blades from Gus prior to the situation referred to in my earlier post, and had what I thought was a growing business relationship with him. The blades I paid for were intended as a business venture, to be hilted and re-sold, as opposed to pieces for my own collection, not that it makes any difference.

I offered to work with him on both the models of the blades I ordered, and the total number in the order, when it became apparent that he was having trouble fulfilling the order. That was the point when I stopped hearing from him, which situation has obtained to the present. Any communication and acknowledgement on his part that he owed me the blades, and intended to make good on it in some way, would have been enough to keep me from posting publicly about it. The fact that he will not communicate with me at all pretty much defines the situation, as it stands.

I did say that I believe this was not his intent at the outset, but given the facts, there is really no excuse. If I heard from him today, my tune might change, but as things stand now, I have no indication or hope that I will ever see the blades I paid for, or any monetary reparation, or even hear an apology. Defend him if you wish, and do business with him at your prerogative. I truly hope he does better for you than he did for me, but if he does, you should be aware that the machines used to make your blade were paid for in part by taking my money, without having delivered my product. Facts are facts.

[Glen A Cleeton]

Hi Justin

[Bryan W.]

I don't feel this is an issue isolated to Gus or those who have associated with him though. There are several makers who maintain a "decent" reputation and are just as guilty of this.

This is an issue that harms the entire industry. It makes people think twice about ordering another piece with something already outstanding or one at all. I have little incentive to order something by commission now from anyone new unless they have a very solid, proven track record, much less put anything significant down. I know it certainly has slowed down my own orders across the board. I went from 1-2 commissions a year to 1 in the last 2 years.

I for one have a commission with someone that is 2 years past the anticipated completion date and getting updates is like pulling teeth. Contrast this issue with my other current commission with John Lundemo who had one hell of a horrific year with a fire and a hurricane and STILL he manages to get things done and maintain communication lines. John gave me a personal call when things got delayed due to the fire. That's customer service and it means something. Will I order something from the first maker again? I don't know. Maybe not. However, will I order something again from Odinblades? Hell yes.

[Lancelot Chan]

Agree with you. I have had terrible experience with another customer maker and also good experience with John.

[Paul Hansen]

All I can say is that I have had a very good experience with Tried and True to finally have my machine sale sword materialize.

Not that I haven't been worried about that sword over the four (?) years that have gone by between ordering (and expecting quick delivery) and final delivery. Nevertheless, the sword itself is great, one of my favorites, and I would buy another. But then probably without any significant down payment...

[Patrick Kelly]

My goodness, the more things change the more they stay the same.

I reviewed some of the very first Atrims more years ago than I care to admit. From the very moment he decided to make a business out of his hobby he's had problems. It's been a very long time since I've spoken with Gus. In fact, it's been some time since I've spoken with anyone in the industry as a whole. This is primarily because I came to a point where all of the emotional drama, on both sides of the counter, was simply to exhausting to deal with. I still love the hobby and the subject. However, dealing with maker issues like this, as well as helping to run a forum with all of it's inherent drama became too much. It nearly destroyed a lifelong passion I had for the subject.

Angus Trim isn't a bad or dishonest guy. I truly think he's trying to do the best he can, but his best obviously isn't good enough. Over the years he's gone through one intermediary after another and none of them have resulted in a successful partnership. It isn't hard to determine the common denominator here. Unfortunately Gus isn't alone. Most arms and armor making concerns are small affairs. They're started by people with a love for the hobby, not Harvard MBAs. No one sits in macroeconomics class and dreams about making swords in an old cheese factory. Only self-described sword geeks do that. The result is usually a lousy business model, or none at all. I think my favorite has to be, "I just smoke a joint, stare out the window and wait for something to happen." Remember that one Nathan?

Customers also approach the issue from an emotional head space. Their favorite swordmaker is their "guy". They not only buy a product but also assume an emotional connection exists. This isn't exclusive to the hobby but is just a bit irrational in any sense. The typical result is the customer feels the need to defend business practices that would see the shop doors closed in most other industries, all because he's their "guy" in some intangible way. The end result is an ever repeating cycle of bad business and disappointed former customers, yet with just enough defenders to allow the maker to eek by. Thereby sucking in new customers who will in turn help to perpetuate the cycle. None of this will ever change until the customers become more mature and quite a bit tighter with they're spending power. Until that happens swordmakers without any business skill will continue to disappoint customers and you'll be back here in another decade having the same discussion.

[Chad Arnow]

[Ken Jay]

On another forum, this week, Tom commented that Gus is now working on completing swords that he's owed for many years. Per-stroke, post-stroke, machine sale, T&T, and others. Tom discusses the various stages of completion for T&T blades but makes NO mention of possible delivery dates. My take/guess from the post is that Gus is working on some vague FIFO method of filling these long overdue orders. For what it's worth....

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Joe Fults]

[Brian K.]

[Joel Chesser]

[Brian K.]

Let's face it, good business on the internet is built on reputation, with a solid business model. Communication is key, along with superior customer service. As a business, you want to avoid bad threads about your business, like this. Otherwise, you're doing something wrong.

[Jeremy V. Krause]

I've dealt with A&A, Albion, Tod, Petr Florenek, Del Tin, Patrick Barta, Jim Austin, and Michael Pikula and never had to pay any kind of deposit. If a manufacturer can't take any reasonable risk and is working "hand to mouth", maybe it isn't time for them to take on a business venture involving taking orders for non-existant items.

Now if gold or some very expensive precious material was involved in a project I can see the need to a deposit but not in the normal course of business.

Arms and armor as a business is no different than any other business and manufacturers should be held to the same standards of any other business model of a custom nature.

I will echo what others have said. It is the emotionality injected into business transactions which has enabled bad practice.

[Brian K.]

[Justin King]

This discussion is going where previous threads have already gone. I have dealt with the issue of deposits from both a customer's perspective, and as a maker. I no longer accept custom orders, and would think very, very carefully before placing one with another maker, as a result of my experiences. It sounds well and good for a customer to say that it is a business just like any other, but it's not entirely accurate. It's a small, niche industry with a relatively tiny customer base who communicate a great deal on public venues, and vendors who do what they do because they have a love for it on some level or another. Bottom line profitability is quite frankly not enough to induce any sane individual to take it up for the purpose of making money alone, which puts the "just like any other business" theory right out the window. Unless customers are willing to pay higher prices to close the gap in perspectives, of course.

I'm not posting this to be argumentative, but to point out that perspective is a matter of where you view the issue from, and it isn't the same for a maker as it is for a customer. Anyone is welcome to disagree with anything I have said, but unless you have walked in the shoes of a maker in this industry, you should realize that your'e only seeing half of the equation.

[Joe Fults]

[Marc Ridgeway]