| Author |
Message |
|
Craig Shackleton
|
 Posted: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 2:08 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
PvD is specifically addressing combat in armour. I train both in and out of armour, although I guarantee I have less experience in armour than Kel. Still, I'm going to bow to my source on this one, and assume that von Danzig knew what he was talking about.
The actual issue I have with the pool cue thrust is not related to armour particularly; sometimes in sliding the spear, a hard deflection pulls it out of my lead hand. I haven't decided yet whether I'm doing the technique wrong or if I'm having an equipment problem. I know the spear shafts I use are way big.
Ottawa Swordplay
|
|
   |
 |
|
Kel Rekuta
|
| Posted: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, I should have been more specific. My definition of pool cue thrust is the jabby jabby stuff with no body structure behind it. Like - tag, you're dead. Extending the point followed with commitment is entirely effective.
| Steven Reich wrote: | | Greg Mele wrote: | | Kel Rekuta wrote: | Yeah. Out of armour. Wear some, try that nonsense and see if you even notice it. Pool cue thrusts are for gamers.
Kel |
Actually Kel, that isn't what the Bolognese say at all, but they aren't playing tag with spears, partizans and spiedi (winged spears). These are hard slide thrusts, followed by setting the spear, or using the slide to displace a body part and then make another strike to the opening created.
Likewise, there are living schools of Japanese spear combat that use slide thrusts (some with the kuda, a sleeve to reduce friction, some without) against armour, and as with European armoured combat, the rule is to target the weak points of the harness.
I think it is important to understand that there is an overall body of techniques, and you adapt based on how much harness you have, he has, etc. |
I'm with Greg on this. The Bolognese clearly and unequivocally use the "pool cue thrust" (i.e. the punta slanciata), as does every system of sojutsu (i.e. Japanese spear) that I've ever soon. Additionally, Muso Shindo Ryu Jodo also uses this type of thrust with the Jo--trust me when I tell you that if you take one of those, you'll move backwards.
This is all about good body mechanics. Poor body mechanics means that hardly any of your mass is behind the thrust--absolutely a move for a "gamer" against someone in armor. Good body mechanics means that even if you're in armor, you're either impaled, pushed back, or knocked down.
Steve |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kel Rekuta
|
| Posted: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Matt,
When you actually get all your armour, I'll let you test your supposition. 
| Matt Easton wrote: | Great thread.
From what I have read and experienced I am inclined to agree with everything Greg has written above.
Saying that flung thrusts are for 'gaming' just sounds like the words of someone who needs to learn to defend from them better, Kel.
I hadn't heard PvD's advice on this before, but it makes perfect sense to me. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Timo Nieminen
|
| Posted: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 4:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Craig Shackleton wrote: |
The actual issue I have with the pool cue thrust is not related to armour particularly; sometimes in sliding the spear, a hard deflection pulls it out of my lead hand. I haven't decided yet whether I'm doing the technique wrong or if I'm having an equipment problem. I know the spear shafts I use are way big. |
Perhaps neither. It isn't a super-technique, and this is its defect. Similar problems with one-handed longsword thrusts (and cuts).
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
|
|
|
|
|
Benjamin H. Abbott
|
| Posted: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Yes, I believe that weakness against deflection is the reason Swetnam counsels against the single thrust when facing short weapons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sean Manning
|
| Posted: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 8:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
To link this back to the OP, Fiore may teach the one handed thrust with the hand on the butt. Its one of the Six Ways of Holding a Sword, and he seems to want student to apply every part of the art to a given form, not just the specific things he teacher under that one form. I personally think that Fiore's art of the spear is bigger than the six guards, two remedies, and two counters which he specifically teaches for that weapon, although I'm too far from competent to have a strong opinion of what Fiorean spear fighting should look like.
|
|
|
|
|
Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
|
| Posted: Thu 22 Mar, 2012 6:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Kel Rekuta wrote: | | Yes, I should have been more specific. My definition of pool cue thrust is the jabby jabby stuff with no body structure behind it. Like - tag, you're dead. Extending the point followed with commitment is entirely effective. |
Oh. Well in that case, we completely agree. I know that that means that now we can both sleep better at night. 
There is a big difference between a sliding thrust made so that it is powered by the hips and body, and a quick little "snipe". The latter is fine when used against the face of an opponent and in a few other vulnerable spots (if he is unarmored). This is analogous to the difference between some of the sniping type cuts you see people make and cuts delivered with the body behind them. The former are useful in certain situations, but aren't fight-enders.
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
|
|
|
|
|
Matt Easton
Location: Surrey, UK. Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 241
|
|
 |
|
Robert Rytel
Location: Pittsburgh Joined: 23 Oct 2011
Posts: 32
|
| Posted: Sat 24 Mar, 2012 3:49 am Post subject: Re: Revolutionizing Spear Fighting |
|
|
| Craig Peters wrote: | What We Discovered
1) Real spear fighting involves relatively little arm extension in a thrust. Much of it depends upon using the hips and the body, and not the motion of reaching your arms, to facilitate a powerful thrust.
2) Real spear fighting does not involve making short, quick jabbing attacks, but rather powerful thrusts at your opponent using motions that are short, stable and powerful.
3) Real spear fighting involves the hands spaced closely together, and the arms kept relatively close to the body, allowing you to brace the spear and strike with power. |
About 12 years ago when I was in the Marines, my unit was assigned to test a new hand to hand combat system to replace the aging and complicated LINE system. When we were developing and practicing the new bayonet techniques, we embraced these exact three principles you mention.
Note that we did not use pugil sticks since though they are great for combat conditioning, they are terrible for learning technique. We instead used hockey helmets and Japanese style bayonet simulators, which are basically rubber tipped wooden dowels.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kel Rekuta
|
| Posted: Sat 24 Mar, 2012 7:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Matt Easton wrote: | | Kel Rekuta wrote: | Matt,
When you actually get all your armour, I'll let you test your supposition.
|
I do Kel, not sure why you thought I didn't. |
I seem to recall you are still looking for a helmet. If you do have everything and are willing to play in a full contact environment, I will subsidize your trip over here to the next major event in Ottawa this summer. You can test your theory of spear play on about a dozen playmates who would eagerly discuss it in person. 
Unfortunately its too late to get you here for our Pas d'Armes April 14. I will encourage someone to play me with spear again so you can see how limited the effect that jabs have. All this stuff is on hi-res video. I am sure Dan Sellars would be pleased to show you how much he's improved as well.
Sincerely,
Kel
|
|
|
|
|
Matt Easton
Location: Surrey, UK. Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 241
|
| Posted: Sat 24 Mar, 2012 9:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Kel Rekuta wrote: | | I seem to recall you are still looking for a helmet. |
Ah I see - a misunderstanding. My pig-faced bascinet was the first piece of armour I got years and years ago, but I don't like it as it's cheap and nasty (though functional - it's only a GDFB one), and have been looking around for a great bascinet for a while (and doing some research into original English examples on effigies, so I know exactly what I want). But I do have a bascinet with mail aventail. Equally I am not happy with my gauntlets, but they do the job for now.
| Quote: | | If you do have everything and are willing to play in a full contact environment, I will subsidize your trip over here to the next major event in Ottawa this summer. You can test your theory of spear play on about a dozen playmates who would eagerly discuss it in person. |
Thanks - one day I may well take you up on that - the problem for me is always holiday time, seeing as I already do about 3 HEMA events a year plus a holiday and this year I'm also getting married and going on a honeymoon! Currently I am starting to do some regular armoured training now after a long period of not finding any HEMA people in the South East who had full harness and were willing. In the long term I'd like to get some armoured HEMA tourneys going over here.
| Quote: | | I will encourage someone to play me with spear again so you can see how limited the effect that jabs have. |
That would be cool to see. Isn't part of this down to the 'effect' a blunt spear has though, rather than a sharp one? I say that firstly because a sharp spear will hit mail or a junction between plates and 'stick' (as implied by Von Danzig perhaps?) and secondly because of course a sharp point pierces things and doesn't only do percussive damage. Throwing spears and swords against armoured opponents was still prominent in the 15thC, as shown in Fiore and Gladiatoria for example.
Schola Gladiatoria - www.swordfightinglondon.com
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria
Antique Swords: www.antique-swords.co.uk/
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic