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James A. Vargscarr

Posts: 92 Location: Englishman living in Canada

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 11:03 am

Alex Yeoh wrote:

thanks James for your insights. Incidently, I am situated in Edmonton Alberta. Where do you get your swords from?

I actually moved to Winnipeg from England just six months ago. But in England, I bought all my (real) swords from North American dealers (Albion, Kris Cutlery etc), and have custom work from a couple of different Canadian smiths - Al Massey and Glen Parrell. Yes, I got screwed sideways by the import charges, but I expected to be; and the swords were worth every penny. Interestingly, I didn't get charged tax for the three Canadian custom swords...

I just recently bought a sword from an American seller through the SFI classifieds which is on its way right now - my first sword shipped to Winnipeg.

I'm afraid I can't recommend any good Canadian production-line sword retailers. Just be sure you have $100 set aside for GST and PST and you'll be covered for most purchases from America. But keep an eye on the online sword fora - if any news emerges on a Canadian ATrim or Albion dealer a lot of people will shout it from the metaphorical rooftops!

Quote:

By the way - so is my UC Glamdring safe to swing around or not? I am not going to be striking anything with it.

No! Don't even swing it. You don't even need to strike the blade to snap a bad rat tail tang. Display it on a wall, and enjoy it visually :)

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Posts: 5,981 Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 11:38 am

Quote:

No! Don't even swing it. You don't even need to strike the blade to snap a bad rat tail tang. Display it on a wall, and enjoy it visually :)

Better yet--take it apart first if you haven't already done so, study the construction and materials and get a clear idea what's "behind the curtain". Maybe someday you'll want to experiment with rehilting this blade for a different look. Maybe you'll want to cut down the blade to form a full tang and create a sturdier (albeit shorter) custom fantasy piece.

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Posts: 104

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 12:37 pm

you're all making me hate this sword before I even get it!

I really wish I had done my research before I spent on this sword, but I only paid $169 for it so it's not too bad I guess. Plus, admittedly it is beautiful.

Here is a picture of the rat-tail tang:
http://www.bladesbybrown.com/catalog.htm?item=536

at least on the Strider sword, which I presume will be the same for the Glamdring.

Does it look that bad?

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Posts: 104

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 12:38 pm

James - what about Viking Metal Works?

http://www.vikingmetalworks.com//swords.html

the products look pretty well made to me. Does anyone have any experience with these swords?

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Posts: 4,194 Location: Northern VA,USA

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 12:48 pm

The Strider sword's tang actually looks alright. From what I've heard on forums (so take it with a grain of salt) is that UC wanted to make the Strider one a little safer for dry handling. Still a decorative sword, but with better balance and the ability to swing it without having a tang snap.

The Glamdring blade, though, has a skimpy rat tail, as I've seen it in person. It also is clunky and doesn't handle like a real sword at all. But the design is really gorgeous, and there was a time where I was definately tempted to pick one up for display.

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Posts: 4,194 Location: Northern VA,USA

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 12:50 pm

Alex Yeoh wrote:

James - what about Viking Metal Works?

http://www.vikingmetalworks.com//swords.html

the products look pretty well made to me. Does anyone have any experience with these swords?

Well, by all accounts, Glen Parrel of Viking Metal Works does excellent custom work... but recently there's been a lot of talk that Glen seems to have disappeared, and some people who have outstanding orders aren't so happy about that. You may want to look into that before deciding anything.

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Posts: 9,545 Location: Dayton, OH

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 12:50 pm

Alex Yeoh wrote:

James - what about Viking Metal Works?

http://www.vikingmetalworks.com//swords.html

the products look pretty well made to me. Does anyone have any experience with these swords?

The consensus (based entirely on second-hand info) is that the products are good, but the smith is unreachable right now and hasn't been filling orders recently. I would spend my money elsewhere.

I see that you asked about Joe Fults' sword that is available in the classifieds. I've seen it in person, and it's really nice. It handles well, from what a few moments of dry handling told me.

Our own Patrick Kelly wrote this great article which is well worth the read: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_modreplica.html.

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Posts: 104

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 1:10 pm

Skimpy rat tail? You mean it's skinnier than the Strider one? Does the tang go the entire length of the hilt?

Also - I am more interested in Alexi's AT sword. It's more like the LOTR style. Hopefully he will contact me.

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Posts: 9,545 Location: Dayton, OH

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 1:16 pm

Alex Yeoh wrote:

Also - I am more interested in Alexi's AT sword. It's more like the LOTR style. Hopefully he will contact me.

AT's are nice in terms of performance, but there are other swords out there that perform as well but have a higher level of finish (aestethics). This is just my opinion, but I think the A&A sword in the classifieds looks better than many of the stock AT's I've seen in terms of the quality of the finish. In the end, it's up to you of course. If the AT fits your requirements (functionally and aestethically), then go for it.

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Posts: 4,194 Location: Northern VA,USA

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 1:17 pm

Alex Yeoh wrote:

Skimpy rat tail? You mean it's skinnier than the Strider one? Does the tang go the entire length of the hilt?

Yeah, much skinnier. But the Strider one isn't bad, at least based from looking at the photo. There's ways it could be improved, but there's SO MUCH worse you could do.

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Posts: 5,981 Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 1:40 pm

Alex Yeoh wrote:

you're all making me hate this sword before I even get it!

I really wish I had done my research before I spent on this sword, but I only paid $169 for it so it's not too bad I guess.

I hate for anybody to feel that way about a sword purchase because I've been there! You should enjoy this piece and consider $169 cheap for something that makes you happy, fires your imagination and leads you deeper into the arms and armour money pit...I mean HOBBY.

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Posts: 104

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 2:06 pm

Bill - does the Glamdring tang go the entire length of the hilt? Thanks.

As for the A&A vs AT comment - in my eye, Alexi's sword looks nicer than the Joe's sword, and it looks lighter too. Of course I'm no expert and I am open to be educated! Besides - I'm just a beginner here, and I think an AT sword is more in my price range.

By the way - anyone ever have any "runes" engraved into their real sword?

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Posts: 282 Location: Arlington, VA

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 2:23 pm

Never mind my post. :blush: There are many folks here that are much more knowledgable than I am and can say it better. Still I do enjoy coming here and electronically sitting at the feet of the masters. :)

Last edited by Pamela Muir on Tue 02 Nov, 2004 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posts: 9,545 Location: Dayton, OH

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 2:28 pm

Alex Yeoh wrote:

As for the A&A vs AT comment - in my eye, Alexi's sword looks nicer than the Joe's sword, and it looks lighter too. Of course I'm no expert and I am open to be educated! Besides - I'm just a beginner here, and I think an AT sword is more in my price range.

By the way - anyone ever have any "runes" engraved into their real sword?

In my experience, swords by A&A (Arms and Armor) are much more nicely finished than AT's (Angus Trim), though I hear Gus has put more effort into upgrading the looks of his swords recently. The cross on Joe's sword is from this sword: http://www.arms-n-armor.com/2000/catalog/item077.html. It has a lot more visual detail that the pictures show: it's actually octagonal in section. The pommel is nicely faceted. Joe's sword looks better and much more historic, but that's my opinion.

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Nathan Robinson

Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 2:40 pm

Alex Yeoh wrote:

As for the A&A vs AT comment - in my eye, Alexi's sword looks nicer than the Joe's sword, and it looks lighter too. Of course I'm no expert and I am open to be educated! Besides - I'm just a beginner here, and I think an AT sword is more in my price range.

Beauty is a subjective thing. Don't let anybody talk you out of thinking something is beautiful. That sort of debate is pointless. Education is one thing, but then there's simply taste, too. We all have different tastes and preferences.

Having said this, there are other ways of judging aesthetic qualities. One such form of judgement that i use is comparing swords to the database of historic/authentic examples. If the aesthetic qualities of a replica closely match the details found on authentic examples, they often are more "attractive" to me (not to be confused with "beauty").

In the case of the two swords you mention, I don't find the AT "Lady Carmen" attractive to me, personally. I find the pommel to look more like a drawer pull from a cabinet than a historic looking pommel. I also find the cross to be pointy and awkward, lacking subtle clues that are found on authentic swords. There's nothing wrong with any of this, but when I weigh it against my own personal preference for things replicating history, it doesn't hit it for me at all..

All things considred, the A&A sword you mention isn't really my cup of tea either mostly because of the type of sword it is and its era/origin. But I do see details in it that are attractive to me because they resemble authentic examples. The cross has that subtle shape, slope, and volume that is found on antique examples. The facetet pommel has the same details found on so many examples, including the slightly rounded off edges and subtle base that transitions into the grip. While the shaping of the grip is excellent, the bare wood isn't really my thing at all. My personal preference would be to have it covered with leather.

Your eye for details, as they compare to authentic examples, will get better and better with time. While it's possible to have others help "train" your eye for these types of things, the best thing is to look at hundreds and hundreds of authentic examples if historical reproductions are your thing. If they're not your thing, then why bother? Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder.

To say that the only valid way of finding beauty in a sword is based solely on its historical accuracy or likeness to authentic examples is simply silly. There are many, many forms of judging these things and finding something to be attractive. And each way is as valid as another.

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Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 2:41 pm

Alex Yeoh wrote:

Bill - does the Glamdring tang go the entire length of the hilt? Thanks.

As for the A&A vs AT comment - in my eye, Alexi's sword looks nicer than the Joe's sword, and it looks lighter too. Of course I'm no expert and I am open to be educated! Besides - I'm just a beginner here, and I think an AT sword is more in my price range.

By the way - anyone ever have any "runes" engraved into their real sword?

Since mine is one being compared...

"Look" is subjective and opinions will always vary. So go with what looks good to you. Bear in mind though that photos, even those professionally or near professionally prepared, often leave out quite a bit of detail too. At this point in your collecting, worry about what you like and what you are comfortable spending. Not what everyone else tells you is great.

FWIW, the major difference (IMO) between the Atrim and my A&A (neither is perfectly historical) is that the A&A (in this case) is one of a kind.

Last edited by Joe Fults on Tue 02 Nov, 2004 7:40 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Posts: 342 Location: Simmesport, LA

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 2:42 pm

Re: Expensive is right

Alex Yeoh wrote:

I will definitely want a "real" sword now, maybe around $500-$600 from Angus Trim or some other maker around that price point. Of course it would be great to get a fantasy sword AND a real sword, but I'm not going to be spending >$1000 on a sword I just swing around a few times and look at when I get home.

Alex here's an option. Angus' swords are top quality in the area of construction. What you can do it to get a "project sword".
Find a blade design you like and buy it with the base fittings. Then, as you get he money, you could contact someone like Christian Fletcher to make custom fittings for you and/or a custom scabbard. In a few years you will have a beautifully constructed weapon that is unique to you. This is just a thought. Like others here, I think there are many "real" swords that are just a beautiful as fantasy-based swords. Take a look the Albion Svante Nilsson Sture sword http://albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-svante.htm which is based on an actual historical example. Another example is the Arms&Armor Edward III sword http://www.arms-n-armor.com/2000/catalog/item157.html another historical sword. You can also check out my custom Anduril by Kevin Cashen that is fully functional. The thing about the LOTR swords is that Peter Lyon , the swordsmith, made these swords as real weapons. with the exception of the Elvish swords and the big leaf blades, most of the other blades are pretty sane and could have been actual historical swords. ONly the hilts were more ornate (in some cases) than real historical examples.

Joel Whitmore

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Posts: 104

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 3:45 pm

Joe - in no way were my comments meant as a slight against your sword. Just a personal preference. But the more I look at the sword, the more I like it. I may decide to get it yet - I'll have to think about it, I just hope the price is negotiable.
One thing though - what is the POB of this sword, and how does it wield? After reading so many reviews, i think I want my first real sword to wield pretty quick.

Joel - that Albion sword is amazing. The problem is, and with most real swords is - when they look "fantastic" they often cost over $2000 and there's no way I'm going to shell out that money. As for the Edward III sword - it doesn't look fantasy to me, in fact it looks like a typical English medieval sword - too "ordinary". As for Peter Lyons - no doubt he made the originals as real swords, what gets me is - WHY make the reproductions with a rat-tail tang? Surely the difference in price between a full tang and a rat-tail mustn't be that great!!

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Nathan Robinson

Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 3:52 pm

Alex Yeoh wrote:

As for Peter Lyons - no doubt he made the originals as real swords, what gets me is - WHY make the reproductions with a rat-tail tang? Surely the difference in price between a full tang and a rat-tail mustn't be that great!!

Peter Lyon doesn't make the commercial rat-tail tanged swords. United Cutlery does. Peter simply designed them and then the production company creates them. Not only are they rat-tailed, but they're stainless steel and have nickle zinc components. Regardless of tang construction, the sword cannot be functional with the other materials and construction issues it has.

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Posts: 104

Tue 02 Nov, 2004 3:59 pm

Nathan Robinson wrote:

Peter Lyon doesn't make the commercial rat-tail tanged swords. United Cutlery does. Peter simply designed them and then the production company creates them. Not only are they rat-tailed, but they're stainless steel and have nickle zinc components. Regardless of tang construction, the sword cannot be functional with the other materials and construction issues it has.

yes I know that Peter Lyon didn't make the commercial versions, my question is why would UC copy the originals and then make the commercial versions with rat-tails?
1) isn't it just easier to cast the mould for the original blade and tang (rather than making a cheaper rat-tail version)
2) what's the point of having a rat-tail? Would it make any real difference to cost?

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