[Peter Johnsson]

Tatami mats are excellent targets.
A much less expensive, more easily available and quite realistic target is soaked and rolled up newspaper.

Take a stack of papers, cut away the back (the fold with possible staples) and put the pages in a tub filled with water. Let soak untill everyting is thoroughly soaked through. Soaking is very important : if the paper is still dry it will be almmost impossible to cut: think padded armour...
Take the soaked paper and roll up a target. You can use this much the same as a tatami-mat. It only offers fewer cuts per roll, but it is cheaper also...
Bind the paper roll down with a layer of tape.

I use a special type of plastic pipe (fusiotherm pipe, made in Germany. Used in plumbing instead of copper pipe) that is almost as hard as PVC, but much less brittle and more tough in breaking. This mimics living bone pretty well. The results I get look very much the same as the cut bones in the mass graves from the Battle of Visby: completely severed with a clean cut but sometimes the blade truns outwards after having gone halfway through the bone. In some cases the "bone" will shatter or be cleaved down the centre.
The "flesh" is not a pretty sight after a cut like that...
I also use duct tape to bind the soaked paper down. This could perhaps be thought to mimic skin.
With lighter blades (single handed "civilian" C&T types: late 15th C and 16th C types) you will typically get cuts dow to the "bone" but seldom complete "amputations". It is telling to see the difference in cuttig potential between different types of swords. All do "stopping" damage, but it is easier to get clean severing cuts with some types.
Big warswords usually require less of a swing to completely sever a target. With the Duke I have made severing cuts through targets of approximately calf size when swinging from the elbow only, startng with the sword held point upwards in front of me.
Shorter stiffer swords are also surpricingly effective. I have had very good results with a type XV (a bit surpricing that!) and short falchion designs (=falchion and messer blades).

By using this target you will cut something that is "realistic" in that it offer some substance as well as lubrication.
These two aspects are important and should not be underestimate.
It becomes clear just how much da,age one canrealistically expect from different cuts withdifferent swords. It puts performance ina perspective: is two inches deep enough or do you need to sever or amputate completely? How much effort does it take, and what does this tell you about the amount of dedication needed for an effective attack? Tis puts a very interesting perspective on various moves in the old manuals.
You will find that hand and a half swords are typically more forgiving and faster and easier to cut with. With a single hand sword you need more dedication and wider swings to make deep or complete severing cuts.

Some types of swords will cut *light* targets (like 0.5 litres bottles) with ease. To my experience these types are some lighter wide and fullered blades and later era cut & thrust blades and of course the lighter types of C&T 16th C style bastard swords (these are ideal for this type of target). A lighter blade will also perform better with light targets since you need to get it up to speed if you are not to topple the bottle. It is a good test for aim, speed and precision.
You can cut light targets with most any type of sword, but not all will cut as effortlessly and some require more technique to do the cut in an elegant way. To me cutting bottles is more for training technique than determining the potential of the sword.
Plastic bottles are readily available and is a good clue to your technique. However, if all swords and blade types were made to be optimized for this type of target, it would not make them true to their original intended function.
Type XII blades can be excellent for light targets, but it depens on the sword. Heavier types or blades with more blade prescence are not ideal for light targets but might still perform very well with more dense targets.
I do not know how the Acre performs as I have never cut with one. It is one of the first designs Randall Graham made for the Albion Mark Line, I think?
It can be your technique, it can be the way the edge is sharpened (more or less acute or obtuse, depending on what type of cutting it is geared at). I don´t know. Perhaps some one else on this forum has experience with this sword?
With the NG Knight it is possible to cut 0.3 litre aluminium cans filled with water and have the bottom half still standing filled to the brim, so cutting light targets is definitly within the scope if type XII swords.

A word of warning:
-Do *not* use PVC pipe to mimic bone. It is too brittle and does not cut well: it shatters or breaks. There is a small risk you might actually damage the edge in extreme cases.
-Do *not* use solid wood dowels either for the same reason, as solid wood will pinch the edge in a badly aligned cut. A sword edge is not shaped to cut wood very well.
If you want to use something that mimics living bone, choose something that is hard, but not too hard. Preferably it should be hollow and not too brittle. It should demand some focus and technique from you (just to keep the exercise interesting), but still cut well with a well placed cut.

A target that will behave in much the same way as flesh: tough, a bit fibrous but slick as the edge has parted the material, will offer you an opportunity to understand the potential and character of various sword types.

Ballistic gelatin is too much like semi cured glue: it will cause the edge to drag. No lubrication.

Cardboard tubes offer resistance, but can be tough on the edge and will cause light scratching on the surface. Not a major concern, perhaps, but one hould be aware of this. Cardboard is not a favourite target for me.
I much prefer wet newspaper.

If you make a cutting stand with a pointed dowel pointing upwards it is easy to affix the rolled up paper on this, like a candle.

If you use a semi hard, tough plastic pipe as bone, let one end protrude beyond the roll of paper and tape this down to the dowel in the stand with duct tape.

Cut away with relish ;-)

[Jeff Gentry]

Well like you said go to a butcher buy a hog leg and cutt on that i, think it would be pretty close, then grill it and eat it what the heck.

Jeff

[David Kite]

Awesome explanation Peter. Wow, thanks.

Couple of specific questions, though.

1.) Do you really think duct tape mimics skin that well? I've heard of it being used before, but given that the glue is very sticky I figured that a) it wouldn't be a very educational target, and b) that the glue would be a real pain to clean from the blade. Also, do you use only a single layer of tape, and is it tightly wound?

2.) Is fusiotherm pipe only available in Germany? Or do you know of anything equivalent to it if it isn't available elsewhere?

Thanks

David Kite
ARMA in IN

[Brent Rattan]

I had a similar issue/concern about cutting and good cutting mediums.

My answer was a 5 pound bag of Bil-Jac dog food. I came home from a summer vacation and found that my freezer, recently stocked with 100 pounds of Bil-Jac had gone out and the Bil-Jac potentially spoiled. (For those of you that do not know, Bil-Jac is a "real" meat product dog food that is stored frozen and must be consumed after it has thawed because it will spoil). I had recently purchased an Atrim 1421 and really wanted to see it cut something other than milk jugs and the like. I took the bags of Bil-Jac, made sure that the food inside was packed down tight and hard and felt solid, set them up on my cutting stand and went to cutting. I was completely surprised and very impressed by how well my new Atrim sliced them in twain with pretty easy two handed slices. Anyway, at $4.00 per bag, it is not something that I will repeat often, plus it was a mess to clean ip. But, man, it was fun and it really gave me allot of confidence in my Atrim, which has proved to be a wicked cutter on everything I have cut with it.

[Joel Whitmore]

Peter gave you some great cutting ideas. I have heard that soaked newspapers are very good as well and cheap! If you get to a school library or office complex, they will sometimes save the newspapers for ya. One thing I have found that approximates bone pretty well is a thick green vine. No kidding! The only drawback is they have to be green (usually in the spring and early summer). The wood in the vines is porrus and the large ones have an actual center channel filled with water. Of course city people may be out of luck on this one. HEHE the dead carcas ides would not only be very stinky but probably unhealthy as well. As Peter pointed out, live bone is softer than most people think. Also, different swords are made for different types of cutting. A big, thick blade, such as those on a Type X blade may not be conducive to cutting the plastic bottles cleanly. I don't think there is anything wrong with the design of yoru sword here. The smaller bottles do not have the mass to stay in place from the force of the blow until the blade goes through it completely. The gallon jugs do. Cutting plastic bottles are a great way to preactice your edge alignment and speed. The first time I tried a bottle with my old Gus type XIIa, I hit a home run and knocked the bottle completely across the yard. With practice I managed to get cleaner cuts. Another thing to consider with a high-quality sword is where you cut with the blade. Blades with distal taper will be thinner twords the tip, so be sure you try to get the bottle with the center of percussion for a cleaner cut. One thing though...ain't cuttin' fun!

Joel

[Aaron Justice]

Patrick brings up a good point about cutting mediums and real life application. An Atrim of course is an excellent cutter, as are most swords with proper geometry and edges.

But what chance are you going to get to, "Well, let's see, stand still Sir," *places the edge on the guys neck to figure out distance* "Now, let's test the COP" *hits pommel and watches blade wiggle* "Okay, right there... now stand still..." *Decapitates opponent*.

[Douglas S]

Alina, if you can find a cheap source for beach mats, they make an acceptable substitute for "real" tatami mats. Your price may vary, but I can find them for $2 a piece.

[Peter Johnsson]

[Geoff Wood]

I think the pipe is probably polypropylene, from the description.

[Steve Fabert]

[Geoff Wood]

[Alexi Goranov]

[Peter Johnsson]

[Peter Johnsson]

[Alina Boyden]

Wow. I'd like to thank PJ for weighing in on this. Getting from cutting plastic 2 litre bottles to the harmonics of medieval swords is precisely why I post here. I'd also like to thank you guys for the cutting medium suggestions. Now I finally have a use for the Daily Nexus. (Free university newspaper)

[Einar Drønnesund]

Peter, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. I hope for your own sake you are a faster typer than I am. I would have spent the best part of an hour writing a post that long. And it wouldnt be half as interesting if I did.

[Peter Johnsson]

[Alexi Goranov]

[Nathan Robinson]

This is a good discussion, folks, and I'd like to especially thank Peter Johnsson for additions. This topic has enough value to warrant making it a spotlight topic.

[Alina Boyden]