[Vincent Le Chevalier]

[Rex Metcalf]

Mr.Fletcher,

I can understand your frustration. If I may I would like to give you some friendly advice for future reference. Choosing a smith to work with is something that takes awhile. Firstly, not all have the same aescetic, vision or flexibility there is a great smith out there for all tastes. Secondly, it doesnt hurt to do business with a smith you actually like whose work suits you. Thirdly, you cannot micro-manage a commission, I've been guilty of this too, its exciting to commission a sword and hard to relax when that much money is changing hands- but you have to relax and let the artisan have his space and flexibility to work for you.

When I dream up a possible commission, I approach my go-to smith,Micheal Pikula, with a design idea and then let *him* tell me if the idea is workable and give him free rein to make me a great sword...I trust his judgement completely. If he tells me we can make a better sword by doing "X" "Y" or "Z" ,thats what we do And it comes out great.

Also understand too that the concept of push button machine perfect "customer service" changes a bit with hand made items, sometimes the thing comes out as it comes out,theres nothing for it, and occasionally mistakes are made, alot of bad feelings can be avoided by understanding we're all fallible to a degree. I can give you several horror stories of sword enthusiasts who lost 3-4 grand and never heard from the smith again...You got your sword, and so far, a partial refund. Alot of folk wish they could be that lucky.

At any rate I wish you well, and a speedy resolution to the betterment of both parties.

~RD

[Nathan Robinson]

[Dan Howard]

I'm not sure what the fuss is about. You agreed for him to sell it on consignment. Either you give him the money and take it back or you wait for it to sell. All you are doing here is telling all of the other swordsmiths to not to deal with you.

[Joe Fults]

[Harry J. Fletcher]

From the start of my posting about this situation Mr. Pearce has been perceived as the victim who has done everything to appease me, Mr. Fletcher, a person who has unfairly damaged Mr. Peace's professional and business reputation egregiously. Here I am again trying to take unfair advantage of Mr pearce by applying pressure in the public arena and in bad faith. Mr. Pearce is blameless in this matter and any transgression made by him is only of a minor consequence. This is the position taken by majority of those people who posted in reply to my post.

Not one word has been said about Mr. Pearce's professional, ethical obligation to deliver a sword comensurate with the price he charged me. Everyone has skipped over the fact that Mr. Pearce knowingly sent a sword with a poorly made defective grip to me. The fact that a major specification of the sword was not met, the hot peening of the pommel to the tang seems to be totally ignored even though that specification was stressed to Mr. Pearce. That I had no right to physically inspect the sword for quality and structual defects is beyond the pale. Additionally all sorts of unwarranted speclulation have been added in to my critic's arguments. Finally, I am being portrayed as applying leverage to Mr. Pearce unfairly by merely stating the facts of the situation. All I did was report the situation so that people could judge the situation for themselves. I can not force people to perceive the facts as I do but it was Mr. Pearce who brought this upon himself, not me.

I reiterate that Mr. Pearce owes me the balance of $750 on the refund for the sword. He owes me the money now, not when the sword sells.

[Allan Senefelder]

[Chad Arnow]

Harry,
I think you had some legitimate gripes about the sword. The grip was not up to snuff by your estimations, though there isn't agreement on that. I think you're carelessly implying that Tinker sent you a bad grip on purpose and that hurts your cause. And Tinker missed the hot peening part. The scabbard was sloppy. He offered to fix those things, as he should have. The transaction should have ended there, with him fixing the problems or making a new sword to your specs.

This consignment deal shouldn't have happened. According to Tinker, after Harry returned the sword for repair as agreed, Harry backed out and tried to get PayPal to refund his money; he later did the credit card chargeback. Then Tinker decided to do the consignment thing. It's all very weird. After they both agreed mutually to return the sword for repair, both took unilateral action that made an amicable resolution apparently impossible.

Harry shouldn't have agreed to return the sword and have it repaired only to try to get his money back through PayPal and his credit card. Tinker shouldn't have quasi-offered/heavily implied a refund if he couldn't/wouldn't do it. He probably shouldn't have imposed the consignment deal either.

Unfortunately, this whole things has spiraled downward. Tinker's stated policy wherein he shows pics of the completed piece for approval prior to payment and shipping should have kept this from being a problem. If the peening was a major spec, I personally would have made sure he sent pics of that. Makers (not all, but some) are not photographers and will send only a pic or two of questionable quality. In cases where I've had questions about something or a major spec I wanted done, I've asked for more/better pics. You probably could have saved yourself some heartache by asking for more pics before approving it. You kind of doomed yourself by approving the item without having enough photographic evidence in my opinion. The lesson we should all take from this is to feel more free to request additional pictures prior to approving a custom item.

Tinker may have made some missteps in his handling of this (if Harry's account is true, and I have no way to verify his statements) . First, he reportedly told Harry he couldn't give him a refund because he had already spent the money. While he may have spent it on a variety of valid things and have been short on cash, it's absolutely not the customer's fault if the maker can't manage their cash flow. Additionally, it implies a refund is due, which may seem counter to the maker's publicly stated policies. If the maker offers refunds, it's up to them to manage their cash to have money available to refund things. If they don't offer a refund, it doesn't matter whether or not the money was spent and that fact shouldn't have been brought up at all, as it's irrelevant, confusing, and could set the customer off. If no refund is possible, that should have been flatly stated. In the earlier, now trashed, thread Tinker heavily implied he could refund eventually, just not at the time since the money was spent.

Additionally, not returning (aka ignoring) a customer's emails or phone calls is not acceptable. I think some people will see Harry as being unreasonable and will understand Tinker's avoidance on some level. However, customer service involves servicing every customer's needs even if you think they are unreasonable. Hopefully, before Tinker stopped responding he told Harry he would no longer respond. If not, his lack of response is not acceptable (in my opinion) and is only making a bad situation worse. Even if he didn't notify him of an intent to stop communicating, that's still a lack of customer service, whether justifiable or not.

Neither party comes out of this smelling like a rose. Tinker has worked hard to repair a reputation damaged many years ago, and by all accounts had succeeded in regaining the trust of the marketplace. This situation may tarnish that reputation very slightly. Harry's efforts to warn the public and perhaps use public pressure to get resolution have backfired and will make it hard for this situation to get resolved, to say nothing about damaging the willingness of other makers to work with him down the road.

It's sad, really.

[Nathan Quarantillo]

Hit the nail right on the head Mr Arnow, very well said.

[A. Gallo]

I recall the original allegation being that Tinker sent you a "poorly reworked import" disguised as a custom sword, then vanished; that you were selflessly "outing" him as a conman to the consumers. I was angered and really hoped you got your money back, because you were accusing him of criminal activity.

It's been a long time since then and I haven't at all kept up with the saga, but, wow, has the story evolved:

►The (handmade) sword ended up being vouched for as authentic by another well-known maker and only slightly different from what you commissioned.
►The reworked import you alleged it to be turned out to be a sword he previously designed which you asked him to model your sword after (by name).
►He offered to fix the features you didn't like.
►When you refused, he offered to sell it on your behalf.

When you leave all of that stuff out, how can people continue to give you the benefit of the doubt?

I don't know Tinker, have never bought a sword from him (I don't agree with his $$$, but it's not like he hides them). However, I've tried in the past to run a business building commissioned pieces (musical instruments) for people with careless descriptive skills who treated it like they were shopping at Wal-Mart. I'm not saying that's you, but I'm saying people should kind of know the pros & cons of buying a hand-made product from a single person making a living off of each piece ahead of time.

Somewhere along the line you mentioned that right after you received the sword you ran into unexpected medical fees (and I do hope you're doing well as far as health is concerned).

All too familiarly does it appear to me that you made a poor financial planning decision and Tinker suddenly turned from swordsmith into health insurance provider. The story has just changed too many times for it to be about an uneven grip or some other trivial detail, even 10 of them. If you had an agreement with him that the sword would be listed on his site and you would receive the proceeds from the sale, then you forcefully took back $750 anyway, I can kind of understand why he would bore of ongoing negotiations.

I'll only make one post in this thread and won't be a long-term gossipgirl... For the sake of the moderators

[Joe Fults]

[Joe Fults]

[Jeff Larsen]

Sorry that you had to go through this (Tinker included), but the custom market is very limited now as people are saving for paying their bills.

Tinker offered to sell the sword on consignment. It appears that it has not been sold.

You got $700 back from your credit card company. Tinker is out $700 and he would be grateful to get the $700 back, so selling the sword would be in his best interests.

You'll need to wait until it's sold. I doubt anyone can help you here.

[Greg Mele]

Harry,

You are mischaracterizing people's posts here. It is not a blanket effort to defend Tinker, nor a blanket effort to vilify you. It is simply a group of forum regulars - in what is one of the most even-keeled forums in the community - telling you are entitled to a resolution, but not the one you are demanding.

Chad's post really summarize, I suspect, the feelings of most people. But, it is also true that you did first come to myArmoury with some initially hefty allegations, starting with the assertion that this was just a Hanwei sword. That is an allegation of fraud, and it was potentially libelous.

If the vendor's policy was "if there is anything you don't like upon receipt, I will refund your money", then that would be one thing (and that would be a serious anomaly in the custom arms and armour market, but not unheard of). It wasn't. When it isn't, then usually what happens is that the vendor will modify the item to fix the problem. That all still depends on good will and good faith negotiation.

Let me give you a few real world examples everyone here will understand, because it has happened to them, or someone they know.

1. You buy custom armour. The armourer and you both have a vision of the piece. That vision must needs to then be realized by the skills that armourer possesses. In the end, it may not match that ideal in your mind. If it doesn't fit or doesn't function, then the armourer is expected to make it work. Maybe you pictured a higher point on the bascinet, or a slightly different shape to the visor? He is not obliged to keep remaking it until you have your Platonic ideal. You ordered a Churburg bascinet and got it? It fits and it works? You agreed to the pictures that were sent? Then if you aren't happy, sell it. .

(I would advise you to go through myArmoury's back posts and look up threads regarding the now-defunct Mercenary's Tailor. Part of the reason Allen is considered to be such a stand-up guy, was because he went so far above and beyond in taking pieces back to rework or tweak them for his customers when he did not have to do so.)

2. You buy a thoroughbred puppy from a breeder. You make a deposit and then wait for a litter to be born, then you get your puppy. What happens next is entirely up to the individual breeders, and the individual contract. For most, if the puppy has a congenital health defect, they will take the puppy back within a very short period of time for an exchange (if any are available, otherwise you go back on the list). They will refund for specific reasons, but often minus your deposit. If you simply decide that you don't like the dog; he isn't cute enough, has a boring personality, etc, too bad, so sad. Sell him.

3. You buy a car. Not just something off the lot, but you want a specific make, model, color and goodies package, so you have to wait to have it shipped to the dealership. You take possession of the car, drive it off the lot and over the next week find something that was not to your liking. The car has a warranty, certainly, but the dealership isn't going to take it back, cancel your financing and give you your down payment. They will *buy it back at a lower value*. Even though you custom ordered your car, once you took possession you agreed to the deal. Often, even if there is a performance problem, they will *fix* it but neither replace or refund. It is extremely hard to return a car as a "lemon". You aren't happy with the car after all of this? Too bad, so sad. Sell or trade it.

4. You buy a home. One of the reasons that you have inspectors come out is to determine potential problems. If the inspector misses something, and a problem develops after the deal has been finalized, you don't get your down payment back, hand over the keys and they tear up the mortgage. There are ways out of a deal of this magnitude and they are carefully governed by specific laws. But consider this - often, if y you back out after a contract is pending, your earnest money is lost.

This is a list of custom or expensive purchases, many of which are bought "upon order", and none of them have a guarantee of perfect satisfaction. They all do have a policy for making amends if the purchase in question is defective: the armour must be fixed or rebuilt, the puppy replaced, the car repaired, the previous home owner pay for the repair, etc. But none let you simply return for a full refund.

Harry, it sucks to be disappointed: I have custom armour I have sold off because it was disappointing, and a custom sword from a very well-known swordmaker that is beautiful to the eye, but IMO really dead in the hand. I hate this sword. But, it is still a Type XVI arming sword, of the size and form I ordered; I just don't like how it moves in the hand. That is my $1000 problem to sell.

Re: your sword, I think the hilt was flawed, and as such, Tinker had an obligation to fix the handle. No one seems to be exempting him of that responsibility. Your other complaints were aesthetic and thus subjective, but you approved the photos. That makes it your problem, and while it is also Tinker's from a PR point of view, it is not from a financially obligatory one.


In short, he had to fix the hilt. He did not have to refund your money just because you say so.

If there were a contract stating otherwise, well that would be different. But once you went to the charge back you broke off any kind of good faith negotiation. By the end of the last go around, it had become VERY CLEAR that Tinker was going to sell the blade on consignment. Even if that is not how it started, that is how it read to everyone at the end. You can say that "I didn't agree to that", but you did, by default. If not, it would have ended with "Here is $700, send me back my sword".

You didn't want that, you wanted money. The problem is:

1. He wasn't obliged to pay you outright and made it clear that he would not do so;
2. He was not going to give you the sword for the remaining $700 or 750 you failed to charge back, basically giving it to you for half price.

So the choice was either:

1. to return the $700, take the sword back and be done with it,
2. leave it with Tinker on consignment.
3. take Tinker to court and see if a judge feels any differently.

Consignment is what it is, whether it takes one day or twenty years to sell, you sit and wait.

The reason many people seem exasperated with you is that you are insistent that everything must be to your complete satisfaction. You didn't like those three choices, so you tried to create a fourth: be the squeaky wheel in the court of public opinion to force the resolution you wanted. Sometimes that works. But when you go the court of public opinion, they don't always agree. Here, it seems that most of us, who have no dog in the race, do not.

Option four isn't working and is making things *worse*. That leaves the original three choices: return $700 and get the sword back, leave it there until it sells or go to court. Nothing has changed.

[Jeremy V. Krause]

I have a question as someone without a fine understanding of manufacturing details of hex-nut assembly swords.

So Mr. Fletcher requested a peened assembly and received a hex-nut assembly. Is is possible to take a sword with a hex-nut assembly and rework the hilt into a peened assembly as was done in this case? Would said sword be indistinguishable from a sword hot-peened from the onset?

I'm just asking as I really don't know the answer to this.

If it is not possible to remake a hex-nut into a peened sword then I can understand Harry's frustration in this regard. I would hate to receive a hex-nut sword myself and would ABSOLUTELY need assurance that a reworked sword would be functionally and constructionally identical to a sword peened from the onset.

[Luka Borscak]

Tinker offered to modify the tang and peen the sword, so it's possible. I have a Hanwei Tinker Longsword with a new pommel made and peened, that is another solution... But it seems Mr. Fletcher refused the proposed modification and just wanted money back.

[Greg Mele]

I have one sword converted that way and it works just fine - just as tight as my others.

[Jeremy V. Krause]

[Dan Howard]