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Luka Borscak
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 Posted: Thu 31 May, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I got today J.D.'s Arms&Armor custom 11th century sword, no clicking, looseness or anything like that. Even after cutting still tight. Wonderfully quick and responsive sword btw, I love it. 
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Thu 31 May, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Julien M wrote: | | Hum, I would tend to think that at that price range Albions should be free of any such things. I find it very awkward since guard and pommel are cast to fit blade shoulders and tang, are punched onto the tang, then the sandwitch grip is epoxied on it...which is a very sturdy construction method and I fail to see were this noise can come from, as everything should be as tight as it can be. |
My guess would be that it is actually due to the construction method. Because the grip cores are sandwiched, if the grips shrinks even slightly due to humidity differences than it will leave small gaps.
With a compression fit, this shrinkage would cause looseness. With a sandwiched grip, it results in a click, but not looseness....
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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J. Hargis
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| Posted: Thu 31 May, 2012 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Robin Smith:
| Quote: | | With a compression fit, this shrinkage would cause looseness. With a sandwiched grip, it results in a click, but not looseness.... |
No doubt, Albions certainly look and feel right, but wouldn't the clicking indicate friction and therefore eventual wearing of the parts involved?
Thanks.
Jon
A poorly maintained weapon is likely to belong to an unsafe and careless fighter.
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Thu 31 May, 2012 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| J. Hargis wrote: | Robin Smith:
| Quote: | | With a compression fit, this shrinkage would cause looseness. With a sandwiched grip, it results in a click, but not looseness.... |
No doubt, Albions certainly look and feel right, but wouldn't the clicking indicate friction and therefore eventual wearing of the parts involved?
Thanks.
Jon |
I dunno... It seems that most here that have experienced this issue say that it did not lead to looseness in their experience.
Unfortunately, there is no way to isolate natural materials like leather and wood from the effects of the environment. No wood is ever 100% stabilized. There will always been expansion and shrinking. Why do you think old houses and furniture creaks?
I suppose Albion could go to plastic grip cores. 
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Brandt Giese
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| Posted: Thu 31 May, 2012 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick Kelly wrote
| Quote: | | In short, it's a trait not a problem. It doesn't effect performance or structural integrity so Albion doesn't need to waste time addressing a nonexistent issue. |
I do not believe this should be dismissed as such and it is an existent issue. I love my Albions and I have purchased another since receiving my Reeve. I do not however agree with posts that blow this nuisance out of proportion as even the finest manufacturers such as Mercedes Benz have issues, they do though correct them. Why then does Albion, in my opinion the finest production sword, leave it to the consumer to fix?
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Matthew P. Adams
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| Posted: Thu 31 May, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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The following is taken from the Albion website, under care and maintenance.
"Great care was taken in the making and assembly of your Albion sword. However, even with the pains taken to seal and stabilize all of the organic materials used, extremes in temperature and humidity can sometimes create small expansions and shrinkage that lead to potential loosening of the hilt. Although rare, should this occur we offer refurbishment and repair by our shop at no cost to you apart from return shipping. All Albion Mark swords are guaranteed for life against defects in materials and workmanship."
So they know it can happen, and if you pay shipping, they'll fix it for free. The handle is wood, wood is effected by humidity, I don't know how you could "fix" that.
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Brandt Giese
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| Posted: Thu 31 May, 2012 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Mathew Adams wrote,
| Quote: | | So they know it can happen, and if you pay shipping, they'll fix it for free. The handle is wood, wood is effected by humidity, I don't know how you could "fix" that. |
I stated in my original post that Albion would fix it. Also I would like to point out that nothing is loose. If you read all the previous posts you will find many consumers have fixed the issue. When I spoke to Mike, couple years ago if my recollection is correct, the issue was not so much as the wood but with the epoxy. I would rather not say too much as I do not want to mis quote him. The wood shrinkage hypothesis is not confirmed so lets not apply it to all cases. I would think expansion would enable the grip to move and in all of the previous posts all grips and furniture remain tight.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| Brandt Giese wrote: | Patrick Kelly wrote
| Quote: | | In short, it's a trait not a problem. It doesn't effect performance or structural integrity so Albion doesn't need to waste time addressing a nonexistent issue. |
I do not believe this should be dismissed as such and it is an existent issue. I love my Albions and I have purchased another since receiving my Reeve. I do not however agree with posts that blow this nuisance out of proportion as even the finest manufacturers such as Mercedes Benz have issues, they do though correct them. Why then does Albion, in my opinion the finest production sword, leave it to the consumer to fix? |
I can't speak for Albion, but I'll assume it's because there's nothing to fix. They'll remove the ticking sound if the owner's afraid the world will stop spinning on its axis because of it and insists on returning the sword. Honestly, it's a bit like complaing the tires on your car make noise on the road when the vehicle's in motion.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Brandt Giese
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 6:44 am Post subject: |
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Patrick Kelly wrote,
| Quote: | | I can't speak for Albion, but I'll assume it's because there's nothing to fix. They'll remove the ticking sound if the owner's afraid the world will stop spinning on its axis because of it and insists on returning the sword. Honestly, it's a bit like complaing the tires on your car make noise on the road when the vehicle's in motion. |
Really? I guess I should send my others back because they don't click.
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Julien M
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | In short, it's a trait not a problem. It doesn't effect performance or structural integrity so Albion doesn't need to waste time addressing a nonexistent issue. |
Actually since this "non existent issue" has been spotted on a bunch of Albion swords from different owners, I think Albion should take the opportunity to investigate if not fix it. Not because it constitutes a threat to the sword integrity but because Albion has a reputation of producing pristine production swords of the very finest quality down to the slightest detail, and that it would be a good idea to continue to uphold such standards of excellence, and clicking noises of any kind from the hilt certainly does not produce the right impression.
Plus their manufacturing methods are transparent and I'm rather intrigued by this issue. Maybe they should give a go at another brand of Epoxy to glue the sandwith grip, maybe they should make under leather cord binding a standard on the next gen line...who knows. One thing for sure it is certainly down to a minor fine tweak. I'd be rather curious to have Peter J's take on this. Anyway, no such noises on my only Albion (a Crecy), and still a source of wonder everytime I take it out of its scabbard.
Cheers,
J
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Cord underwrap was standard before but they abandoned that practice. It would be interesting to know if less of their swords "clicked" when they used cord.
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Brian K.
Industry Professional
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 727
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: |
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I've owned and handled a multitude of Albion's and only one clicked upon wielding, and that was the first Vigil I owned. It only started doing it about a year later. Being in Utah, I'm in a dry, high altitude environment.
All others are click free.
Brian Kunz
www.dbkcustomswords.com
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 9:10 am Post subject: |
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None of the 5 that I have owned have ever clicked. I've also handled several others, and never encountered it. It obviously happens, but I don't think its as common as reading this thread would lead some to think.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | Cord underwrap was standard before but they abandoned that practice. It would be interesting to know if less of their swords "clicked" when they used cord. |
I'm not sure that's true. Some of the museum swords have it, but I don't believe the NG line ever has. They've always used the overwrap to give the texture.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Matthew P. Adams
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Wow, no cord under wrap? That IS surprising. I thought the under wrap played an important part in supporting the wood grip.
I'm VERY glad I decided to go with the wire wrap on the one I have on layaway! 
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Julien M
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew P. Adams wrote: | | I thought the under wrap played an important part in supporting the wood grip.: |
It does, and some would say that it's crucial to have such a cord underwrap (Tinker is one of them, having made the point of including that feature on the Hanwei Tinker line).
In truth hIstorical examples features both...with or without cord under the leather. Personnally I've never used any under cord wrap on any of the sword I've hilted, being like many heavilly influenced by Albion's aesthetic and keen to reproduce that kind of neat finished look.
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Matthew P. Adams
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 9:40 am Post subject: |
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I was searching while you responded and found this thread.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=16942
I had no idea that the underwrap wasn't a standard practice. This is why I love this topic, you just keep learning new things.
(Course I wouldn't mind if they had one either! Guess I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy.)
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 9:42 am Post subject: |
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I think its important to remember that in period a blade would often be rehilted several times over its working life.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Justin King
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Since Albion makes their swords to resemble period swords as much as possible, maybe the central question should be whether this was common with period swords? Not an easy question to answer, but maybe worth considering for those who collect "historically correct" swords.
The fact that Albion wedges the guard and pommel into place rather than using a compression-type assembly seems to be one of the things that sets their work apart in the minds of many collectors and users. The evidence here seems to indicate that the clicking noise is endemic to this type of assembly, probably related to the effect of humidity on the wooden grip core, and that in most cases it will have no real effect on performance. It also seems to indicate that in many cases it can be remedied with a little effort by the user. Maybe dripping hot pitch into the guard slot was a something that was done as a matter of regular maintenence in period?
Another question might be whether some users would prefer a compression-type assembly, based on the preference for a sword that dosen't make noise in use? My point is that the problem may lie in the expectations of modern sword owners, rather than with any defect in the product. If a plastic grip core solved the problem, how many Albion owners would be willing to sacrifice that bit of historical accuracy to have a silent sword?
Just as a point of interest, some Katzbalgers and Landsknecht daggers feature chimes or bells which are incorporated into the hilt. On some Katzbalgers the guard finals are hollow bronze or latten spheres which contain a little ball or chime, on bronze/latten hilted daggers there is sometimes a chime placed inside a hollow cavity inside the pommel. So there is some precedent for period weapons that were actually designed to make noise in use. It might seem bizarre that having a chime or 2 affixed to your sword might make it more historically correct, but in this particular case, it's our own lack of understanding that makes it so.
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Justin King wrote: | | Since Albion makes their swords to resemble period swords as much as possible, maybe the central question should be whether this was common with period swords? Not an easy question to answer, but maybe worth considering for those who collect "historically correct" swords. |
I would bet it almost certainly did happen. Wood was vulnerable to humidity then as it is now, and our modern glues/epoxies are vastly superior.
Period swords rarely were the perfect specimens that you see come out of New Glarus. Assemmetries galore, crooked crosses, uneven fullers, etc...
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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This is a standard topic