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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have one legend that keeps fueling my imagination: Achilles armour.

Alexander the Great is said to have retrieved it from his tomb to wear for luck in battle. Was it real? Is the body of Alexander actually buried in it now, in a placec lost in time, or was it a hoax, a publicity stunt with something made to look like Achilles armour even back then?

What a find of the Millennium Alexanders grave would be to dig up in it's own right, and the armour too even if it was a copy made in Alexanders time. And what if it wasn't...

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From our very own featured articles section... The legend of the sword of Saint Galgano. < Click his name!
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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

China has a lot of legendary swords... One of the most of which would be the "Tai'e" (泰阿) sword. The amount of superstition and pure legend that surrounds this Bronze Age (Spring and Autumn Period, 722-426 BCE) weapon is amazing.

Here is a good example to start with...

On 1st January 2011, www.chinaculture.org wrote:
According to the Lost History of Yue, the valuable sword Tai E was naturally made in the State of Chu. The King of the State of Jin, which was the strongest state then, was not happy about this and attempted to take possession of the sword by invading Chu. Besieged by the troops of Jin, the King of Chu was told to surrender and give the sword to Jin. Otherwise, his country would be doomed the next day. Instead of giving out the sword, the King of Chu, with the sword, led his army to defend his country.

It was a matter of minutes before Chu would be wholly occupied by Jin. On the verge of defeat, the King of Chu let out a long sigh and said to the sword: “Tai E, Tai E, today my blood will be offered as a sacrifice to you.” With these words, he took out the sword. The moment the blade was out, a miracle occurred: the soldiers of Jin were frightened into disarray, and killed with no one left alive. Surprised at this, the King of Chu asked: “Why was the sword so powerful?” and an advisor told him that its magic power was drawn from his own inner power—the courage to stand firm before a formidable enemy. Tai E was thus a sword of prestige.


The sword was said to have been created by the equally as legendary swordsmith Ou Yezi, or his apprentices, whom I'll get to later. It was apparently one of a set of three swords created for the King of Yue nation, Goujian (most famous for the sword in Hubei Museum attributed to him by his name on the blade, google "Goujian Sword"). More research shows that "Tai'e" could quite possibly be the name of an area where swords were made, a foundry perhaps, and that the name might have been given to the sword during the Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220 ADE), hundreds of years later.

Another piece of the legend...

On 1st July 2009, Kenneth Blair on http://forum.grandhistorian.com wrote:
As for the story from Zhang Hua's biography in the Jin Shu, that is clearly a later sequel to the Yuejueshu ("Lost History of Yue") legend. The story goes that before Wu was conquered by Jin in 280, there was a purplish glow in the night sky between the lunar mansions of Dou and Niu. Most astrologers took this as a sign that Wu was still too powerful to be conquered, but Zhang Hua (a famous Jin minister, scholar, and collector of antiquities) disagreed. After Wu was conquered, the purplish glow got even brighter. Zhang Hua then consulted a talented astrologer named Lei Huan, who lived in Yuzhang (formerly under Wu rule). Lei Huan revealed that the purplish glow indicated the presence of fine swords in a county called Fengcheng, right there in Yuzhang prefecture. So the two came up with a plan to find the swords. Zhang Hua secured for Lei Huan an appointment as magistrate of Fengcheng county. Lei Huan then began excavating under the foundations of the Fengcheng county jail, and found a stone casket that emitted a bright aura. Inside were two swords - one with the inscription 'Longquan' and the other with the inscription 'Tai'e'. That night, the purplish glow in the sky no longer appeared.

Lei Huan polished the swords with fine soil from a mountain in Nanchang, and they shone brilliantly after that. He sent one sword, along with the soil, to Zhang Hua in the capital city, and kept the other sword for himself. When asked by his friends why he was trying to trick Zhang Hua by withholding one sword, he said that he could foretell that Zhang Hua would lose his life in political turmoil, so there was no point giving him both swords. "In any case, magical objects like these will eventually transform and depart on their own accord, and will not forever be worn by human beings." Zhang Hua treasured his sword greatly, but recognized its inscription as the handwriting of Ganjiang, and knew that the sword must have a twin with Moye's inscription. But he did not pursue the matter, writing to Lei Huan that "such marvelous objects produced by Heaven will surely be reunited eventually."

After Zhang Hua's execution by his political enemies in 301, his sword was lost. Lei Huan died, and his sword passed to his son Lei Hua. One day, Lei Hua was crossing the Yanping Ford of the Yellow River when the sword leaped out from its scabbard and into the river. Lei Hua sent servants to dive into the river and recover the sword, but they saw instead two coiled dragons, with patterns on their scales similar to inscribed words. The divers were terrified and returned empty-handed. Lei Hua then realized that the predictions his father and Zhang Hua made about the ultimate fate of the swords had both come true - they had transformed and departed, and they had also been reunited at last.


This ties the Tai'e sword in with another Chinese sword legend... That of the Ganjiang and Moye swords. This is a whole other story, but the gist is that two swords were created together, one male (named "Ganjiang" after the husband), one female (named "Mo Ye" after the wife). These two are said to have been Ou Yezi's apprentices... As I've heard the story, they achieved these genders basically by putting their DNA, in the form of hair and fingernails, into the forging fires. King Helu of Wu, who had commissioned the sword that led to these two heard there was a twin of the one he received, and killed Ganjiang for his insolence. The swordsmith had hidden the other sword of the two ("Mo Ye" was given to the King) in a tree, and it was later given to their son (by Moye) to realise their revenge. The revenge story is quite a cool legend in itself.

Back to Tai'e... The sword apparently found it's final (and perhaps current) resting place in the tomb of "The First Emperor" Qin Shihuang, who unified China and created the Qin Dynasty in 221BCE (and then died in 210BCE). Many swords were given the name "Tai'e" over the years, but the one in the Qin tomb (if it's there) is, by all accounts I can find, the real one.

They have found this tomb, it's where the Terracotta Army stands, but they have yet to find the sword. They still have many unopened areas of the tomb to go, so the sword might well be found.

I could talk about this for hours, so I might just stop now...

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Ken Speed





Joined: 09 Oct 2006

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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 6:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I confess my complete embarrassment in that it took me this long to suggest Gram the thrice forged sword Sigurd the Volsung used to kill Fafnir.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Offtopic factoid: whenever the texts say that something was done three times or "thrice-made", it just means that it was very well done or of fine craftsmanship. It shouldn't be literally taken to mean "three times".
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
Alexander the Great is said to have retrieved it from his tomb to wear for luck in battle. Was it real? Is the body of Alexander actually buried in it now, in a placec lost in time, or was it a hoax, a publicity stunt with something made to look like Achilles armour even back then?

According to Greek myth Odysseus and Ajax argued over who should get the armour of Achilles and Odysseus ended up with it, so, based on that, Achilles wasn't buried in his armour.

Alexander had at least three different armours on his Persian expedition and probably had a lot more. The one he stole from the alleged tomb of Achilles was the second mentioned in the texts (the first one he left in its place) and he doesn't seem to have worn it much. But one of his bodyguards carried the shield for most of the campaign.
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Ken Speed





Joined: 09 Oct 2006

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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 4:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote, "Offtopic factoid: whenever the texts say that something was done three times or "thrice-made", it just means that it was very well done or of fine craftsmanship. It shouldn't be literally taken to mean "three times"

Well Dan, it seems a bit confusing maybe Gram was only forged twice but it WAS forged at least twice. There are different versions of the legend though so I suppose one can take one's pick. I was going by memory and may have confused Gram with another mythological sword .

Gram originally belonged to Sigmund, Sigurd's father, Gram broke when Sigmund battled Odin and struck Odin's spear. Odin wounded Sigurd mortally but before he died, Sigmund told his wife to keep the broken sword and have it reforged for his son. Time passes, Sigurd grows up and Regin urges Sigurd to kill Fafner to get Fafnir's treasure. Regin makes two swords for Sigurd but Sigurd breaks them both on Regin's anvil ( I think). Then Sigurd gets the pieces of his father's broken sword and has Regin reforge the blade. Sigurd cuts Regin's anvil in half with the reforged Gram. I thought Regin forged Gram three times and it broke twice, hence thrice forged.

I have a copy of the Saga of the Volsungs , I guess I'll have to reread it.

I found out that "Gram" means wrath in old Norse, I thought that was interesting.

So if someone wants to write about a legendary sword they'd be hard put to find one more legendary than Gram, the dragon slayer.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Question from Author         Reply with quote

Christopher Kemp wrote:

I'm wondering, as someone new to this world, if there is a long lost weapon that has achieved legendary status to the folks who inhabit it. Is there a sword, or a suit of armor, or a dagger, or SOMETHING that you all reverentially talk about, wondering where it is and what happened to it? Maybe something with an interesting history attached to it, which has disappeared ... and which might provide a really interesting backdrop for a magazine article about the world of historic arms collecting?

The oyumi or Japanese crossbow fits the description, a mysterious weapon that disappeared from the battle field with almost no record.
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