Knights of mayhem- your opinion? -- myArmoury.com

Rex Metcalf · Posted: Thu 15 Dec, 2011 11:25 am Post subject:

The only things I can really bitch about is the lack of attention the horses seem to get. If you see dust flying off my horses back when I put on a saddle blanket I will kiss your @ss and give you 15 minutes to draw a crowd, also I wonder who their farrier is, if they are going for a natural trim they have flat missed the mark as those horses' hooves look like hell....This dont say too much about a guy who rides around in a hummer...I drive a beat-up ford pick-up but any horse my wife and I own is clean, curried and is well trimmed and shod.

I also did not like seeing that Andalusian get slammed, My walkers are hot blooded, its a sign of willingness and it was clear to me Patrick stayed in that horses mouth too much and spurs were clearly not called for, all these mixed cues are a good way to frustrate and confuse an otherwise superb equine athlete, who only wants to give and heart and soul for his/her rider....So yeah some idiot on a plow horse insulting a riding horse for being unfortunate enough to have a bad rider with hands like a teamster did get my blood boiling.

If you pay attention you can see him clearly pulling back on the reins in the scene where the horse falls I also noted his leg moved, likely, touching the horse with the spur.....I've seen this happen before and its a result of fear on the part of the rider. What tells me this was a good horse is that the horse backed up until it tripped instead of rearing up immediately...most of the hotter horses will.

Another thing I noted was the horses' shallow mouth, a very desirable trait in my opinion and one I breed for in my colts, as it generally means sensitivity and only very light cues with the reins are needed although bad hands can ruin a good mouth. I seldom bit a horse until he already stops,neck reins, backs up with a training bosal. To me seat cues, leg cues and voice commands trained to tedium are preferable to using the bridle as a crutch. All that said I'm unimpressed by the horsemanship displayed, and I'm astounded that anybody calling themselves a horseman would loan or rent these people a horse. *I wouldnt let them ~pay me~ to clean out my Rangers' stall* let alone ride'im.

~RD

Thomas Peters · Posted: Thu 15 Dec, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject: Knights of Mayhem

Having watched all the programs for the season I have to say that I am not impressed. To much like every other reality show on TV these days.
Since I do not joust myself; although I would love to learn, I will not comment on the skill the jousters showed while in the list.
I do however know several jousters and have talked with many more and the one thing that all of the really good ones I know and have talked to stress is the skill you need as a rider before you are even allowed to pick up a lance. As a novice rider, even I know that to get on a new horse that you have not ridden and do not have a relationship with and then expect it to perform for you like a champion is just stupid.

Roderick Stacey · Posted: Thu 15 Dec, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject:

http://www.ripoffreport.com/liars/charlie-and...-78b52.htm

Wow a quick search and there is lots of information.

Joe Fults · Posted: Thu 15 Dec, 2011 7:20 pm Post subject:

So much makes so much more sense now.

Rex Metcalf · Posted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 6:03 am Post subject:

I certainly never thought I would actually be put in a position to defend this man. But I have to say
that putting a persons home address and phone number online for any number of crazies to see, is every bit as low
as any lie charlie may have told about his service record. The above linked site should be ashamed of the potential danger they have put this man and probably others in. Frankly, I only believe about half or less of what I read, and even if these allegations are true I dont think trading one dishonor for another is the way to go about righting the problem.

Opening a man and potentially his family to harrassment or worse is deplorable. I can watch the news and see infants and children molested,murdered, dismembered, abandoned in toilets ad nauseum....If all we really had to worry about was a guy pretending to be a seal....that would be a good day.

Lloyd Clark · Posted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject:

Honestly, if you are making a determination of a person's character, based on what you see on a "reality" tv show, then I would assume that you go to Renaissance Faires to learn history.

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I've met Charlie before and he didn't come across anything like what he is portrayed on the show (and DJ and Brian were squires of mine and I know that they are being misrepresented). None of them have any say in how the show is edited and you can see that it was being put together to showcase the confrontations and bad blood between competitors.

I wasn't there when they filmed any of it, so I am not going to pass judgement on how they treat their horses, each other, or what they are like in person. I am only getting to see what the producers wanted to show and I don't have any perspective on what was actually taking place when they were filmed.

I've talked on this subject at length on the Archive, so I am going to Xpost something I wrote there:

I had a similar experience about 20 years ago, when I worked at Medieval Times. I was recently out of the Navy; had not completed BUDs due to injury/had spent TAD time with Team 1 in Subic prior to Team Spirit 86 (I am a former Intelligence Specialist 2nd Class - counterterrorism analyst). CBS Chicago did a one hour special program on the six knights at MT (I was one of the six) and we had to fill out "resumes" for their background research. At no time did I ever say to anyone that I was a Former SEAL; it never came up in the multiple interviews nor was I asked any questions. The night that they put the show on - there I was, Lloyd Clark, former Navy SEAL. It took me YEARS to get that corrected in a lot of people's minds. I know this is not the same situation as Charlie - but, to me, it is an example of how things can easily get out of control.

Nat Geo wants to promote the show - they go with the most "impressive" thing that they have. I met Charlie at the Sonora tourney in 03 or 04 (concussions will do that to your memory) - he seemed like an okay guy. Is he an AHole? Probably, but I can't name one of us that have run a joust company before that hadn't been called that at one time or another (even me, hell, especially me). Does his show appeal to everyone? No, what show does? Sad fact of life is that most of the people that come to the Ren Faires and watch the joust show, are only there to see someone get their ass dumped in the sand. We accept that, it pays our bills, and that is the draw of the Heavy Impact (my new term) Style of Jousting. Solid wood lances go "Boom" and periodically someone is unhorsed.

I can honestly say that I would rather participate in/watch a joust like that than one of the "Blood Shows" that I performed for years. It's just great seeing Little Johnie's 5-year old face scrunch up in horror (or lust) when you take a sword across the belly and shower the crowd with a fountain of fake blood. Theatrical joust shows are set up that way and they REALLY appeal to the bloodlust that the American public (cue Rome) seems to have.

I love to joust. The two greatest memories I have from jousting: 1) a little boy, about 5 or 6, coming up to me and telling me that I was his hero because I loaned my horse to another competitor who's horse refused to go into the list; and 2) Dragon's Lair 2004 - my last joust of the tourney against Patrick Bjerke, pass #2, and my lance just exploded on his grande gard (a piece hit the Jumbotron) and suddenly, I was just holding the handle in my hand - the rest had shattered. Pat didn't get hurt or unhorsed, AND it was the perfect pass.

Its easy to toss stones. We live in a society that is far too influenced by television. Even the "news" is no longer "news" as it has to be entertainment in some way (Fox, MSNBC, etc). We are exposed to shows that are called "reality shows", but really don't represent reality at all. Thea are popular with producers because they aren't dependent on writers (as a writer, that tends to piss me off, but I digress) and it is relatively easy to find "larger than life" or simply "outrageous" people to populate the shows.

Frankly, I blame Oprah... Wink

Ian S LaSpina · Posted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject:

Thomas Peters · Posted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 5:30 pm Post subject: Knights of Mayhem

I must say I agree with Ian: Well said Lloyd!!!

Glen A Cleeton · Posted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject:

Joe Fults · Posted: Sat 17 Dec, 2011 12:09 am Post subject:

If we're seeing a hollow cutout of the real man that's a shame but the whole thing is a big advertisement for him and the perception of the product is a function of the commercial he participated in creating. If he decided to go along with being a caricature of himself because he thought it would sell then it was probably a good choice. If we're seeing the real man then I imagine that's good with him too. After all, for good and for bad, here we all are talking about somebody that we probably could have given a taco bell sauce packet about a month or two ago. He's already closer to a household name than any of us are ever likely to be. Exclamation

Lloyd Clark · Posted: Sat 17 Dec, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject:

I would assume that Charlie saw this as a way of getting the "sport" of jousting out in front of the public, the fact that he doesn't have creative control of the final product is a pretty standard procedure in "reality" shows. I know from speaking with Brian that there were many times that they tried to get him to say nasty/unpleasant things about the other guys, which he wouldn't do, and then they put many of his statements into the shows completely out of context.

They shoot about 100hrs of footage for each 48 minute show. Just think how much manipulation can be done with that amount of data. I would highly advise withholding judgment on the participants of the show based on just what we are shown. Share your opinions on the show, hell, on how they portrayed the jousters, but take with a grain of salt how much of what was said was in context.

Charlie accomplished something that I tried to do for over a decade: get jousting out front of the general public as a real sport. Shane Adams has a show coming up soon, "Full Metal Jousting", that will showcase the sport along the lines of the "Ultimate Fighter" show, with a pool of contestants competing for a top prize of $100,000. What is ironic, none of us have ever made that much in a year of jousting, much less a brand new person in a month.

So, I guess what I am saying boils down to: cut the guy some slack. There are many of us that want jousting to become a respected sport, away from the trappings of the Renaissance Faire or limited by perceptions of "periodness". There will always be Jeff's ToP, and jousters attempting to compete along strict historic lines for the purists. This is something entirely different, that a lot of us have sacrificed our family time, our finances, and our health to promote.

Rex Metcalf · Posted: Sat 17 Dec, 2011 5:10 pm Post subject:

Lloyd,

As I made the remark "I wouldnt let these people pay me to clean my horses' stall" I feel it decent to say that in light of your post my comments were too harsh. And I apologize for that. Believe it or not though, I've always been suspicious that this navy seal business was an attempt at character assassination, and I've said so.

Truth be told, as I slowly collect armour, work with my horse, etc. A major dream for me is to learn from and, presumptuous as it may sound, compete with men like you in the lists. I got turned down from the show you mentioned but i'm nothin' daunted for it. I've got a long way to go,but I will get there. Its this mindset that makes me really respect you guys who are already there. The refusal to be a spectator...Hell yeah...That tells me all I need to know.
My respect,sir

~RD

Lloyd Clark · Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 10:43 am Post subject:

That's cool, Rex, again if you take everything you see on the show as gospel about how the guys are, then you are doing as much a disservice to yourself as to them. And I would be more than happy to train you to joust!

I WANT TO MAKE FULL IMPACT JOUSTING A MAINSTREAM SPORT, just like Charlie. Just like Shane. Just like Rod. I have broken too many bones and shed too much blood over 30 years of doing this, and I am sick and tired of being considered to be just some circus act. I think finally there is a chance to make a real go of this as a sport. Forget any trappings of history (except that caparisons are great for displaying sponsor logos!) - now is the move to a fresh, new 21st century sport.

Case in point: Charlie being interviewed by Jim Rome

ESPN Story on Jousting

James Barker · Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 11:12 am Post subject:

I understand the reality shows over hype the drama, but that does nothing to convince me to watch the show because I don't care to see that over hyped drama.

Frankly even if it was 30 full minutes of jousting and did not have a stolen valor guy running the show I doubt the show would appeal to me because I prefer something more histrionically accurate that they present.

Rex Metcalf · Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject:

Lloyd, believe me, if I lived a bit closer I would've been knocking on your door already Cool

However, dont count me out, just count me broke Laughing Out Loud

I may take you up on it as finances allow.

I find it interesting alot of fencing schools already host tournaments, now just add the Jousting element and I think that it could appeal to both martialists and historians as well as more mainstream fans. I'm not saying I dont think Jousting is not entertaining by itself, but by adding another layer of WMA you would have another event to keep bodies in the seats as well as promoting our martial heritage in a broader degree. Frankly, I would jump at the chance to get my @ss handed to me playing at the longsword and tilting with the good folk here.

However, I think its reasonable to expect some level of anachronism and I dont think that is a problem as long as the art itself is kept pure. What I think is hard for many in this community to understand is that for as much as many hold ren-faires etc. in disdain, we ourselves are lumped into that category too, at least by the main stream, and while I dont give a damn about the stitch count on the black princes' underwear and other historical minutiae, I do love the martial side of things and anything that can bring that to the fore especially under the fire of competition with the scrutiny of the public is only going to make our beloved arts flourish, granted, it will be a mixed blessing, but then again how far have you had to travel to a longsword seminar? Now, How far is your nearest Tae Kwan Do studio? See my point? Wink

Marketing in action!

I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong and the more I think about it, the more I think where this could go... The more I think KOM is doing all of us a favor. This is a big door being opened and we have Charlie Andrews to thank for that.

As far as Charlie the man goes, I dont know him. But I know that in my time I've been called an idiot and I've been called a son of a bitch...And at times they've been right, at others they were wrong. So it goes....Much sincere respect to Mr. Andrews and Mr.Lambke Cool

Lloyd Clark · Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 3:16 pm Post subject:

Rex Metcalf · Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject:

Well you dared me...I went...I'm easy to manipulate like that Confused

That was pretty cool. Can you post or P.M. me a link to the website?

Sam Gordon Campbell · Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 2:15 am Post subject:

Lloyd Clark · Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 4:32 am Post subject:

William P · Posted: Wed 21 Dec, 2011 12:40 am Post subject:

when my club heard of the battle of nations, which by the way we had been repeatedly invited to form a team and join, we flat out refused for a couple of reasons
1 those guys fight like madmen and we dont know their fighting style so we cant fight as safely.
2. too far away.