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A Pevost




Location: Canada
Joined: 02 Nov 2014

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon 03 Nov, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: what you you guys think of DSA today? (2014)         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
A Pevost wrote:
So this might be a little long..... ive been browsing this site (and this thread) a for a while and overall, it appears that no one here is at all fond of <$300 - $400 - $500 swords; specifically DSA products.


No one? That's a pretty sweeping generalization. There are people here who like all price ranges. Please don't paint everyone with such a large brush. Happy

This forum does have a general focus on how items stack up when compared to historical pieces. It's part of the description that hangs below our logo on every page. Happy But we don't ignore or hate certain price ranges as a whole.

Quote:
Please don't even think of mentioning albion, as god-like as people say they are.


Who said "god-like?" Happy Albion has their fans. And their detractors. I personally like the stuff I have from them (bought several years ago now), but they've gotten too expensive for me. They've had a handful of quality issues that have gone public; I'm waiting to see how they get resolved. They do some things really well. So do other companies. There are plenty of other fish in the sea, as they say.

Quote:
As a noob, i see no inherent flaws in their craftsmanship, in fact i enjoy seeing "forging marks" on the blade and so what if the fuller if off by 0.5mm? It was made by a human being after all...


Check out this thread for a view of a flaw in craftsmanship: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=30929

My personal issues with DSA stem more from hype and marketing that is questionable than from the products themselves. They claim a high level of historical accuracy, but some products are pretty far off in ways that make little to no sense. They (still!) claim museum and/or historical attributions that have been proven false. They have copied other makers' non-historical works, a violation of intellectual property rights. Etc.

As for the products, they can sometimes have many of the same issues as others in the price range: clunky design, shapes and proportions are off, weight/taper/handling issues, scabbards that in some cases are historical for some period (just not for the sword it's paired with), occasional build quality issues, etc.


I apologise if my tone was a little aggressive or accusatory in my initial post. From what I could tell, DSA products, though generally cheap to mid-range in price still seemed to be a cut above the rest of the competition in that price range, given that they were hand made. I admit I know very little about swords and how a sword is supposed to feel or handle. But as far as I could tell from reviews and such, a DSA weapon was gonna be more durable and it was gonna last a good while longer than the other competion in the 300 - 500 dollar price range. I was just a little frustrated that my best shot at a decent sword was being unfairly compared to laser-cut prefection and tossed aside because it didn't sport a $1200 price tag and couldn't have fooled Charlemagne. But hey, I do understand that greater price often = greater quality and who knows, maybe if really get into this hobby, it might be worth eventually trying saving up for a fancy Albion Happy.
By the way, I've read that review before, and I'm inclined to dismiss that case as a 'lemon' in the batch. No one else has seemed to have as serious and dangerous a problem as that individual (with dsa's recent production runs anyway). Or if they have, they haven't been reported.

I do not believe in experts. Experts are a fictitious race of beings who, according to mythology, know absolutely everything there is to learn about a particular subject.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Nov, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: what you you guys think of DSA today? (2014)         Reply with quote

A Pevost wrote:

I apologise if my tone was a little aggressive or accusatory in my initial post. From what I could tell, DSA products, though generally cheap to mid-range in price still seemed to be a cut above the rest of the competition in that price range, given that they were hand made. I admit I know very little about swords and how a sword is supposed to feel or handle. But as far as I could tell from reviews and such, a DSA weapon was gonna be more durable and it was gonna last a good while longer than the other competion in the 300 - 500 dollar price range. I was just a little frustrated that my best shot at a decent sword was being unfairly compared to laser-cut prefection and tossed aside because it didn't sport a $1200 price tag and couldn't have fooled Charlemagne. But hey, I do understand that greater price often = greater quality and who knows, maybe if really get into this hobby, it might be worth eventually trying saving up for a fancy Albion Happy.
By the way, I've read that review before, and I'm inclined to dismiss that case as a 'lemon' in the batch. No one else has seemed to have as serious and dangerous a problem as that individual (with dsa's recent production runs anyway). Or if they have, they haven't been reported.


A few points:

1) Pretty much any sword you buy nowadays will use modern manufacturing techniques and modern materials. It's all a question of how much inaccuracy you can stand. Happy But they're pretty much all made in ways and with things our ancestors didn't have. And our ancestors used water wheels and other things to grind swords sometimes. They weren't all forged start to finish. Nowadays, people including DSA, use electrically powered grinders in certain stages. DSA is really no more or less handmade than Windlass or some others in the price range that do a better job of capturing historical looks and feel.

2) Albion's aren't laser-cut and they're not perfection. They do use a CNC machine for their blades (as do some other companies). But the blades are still ground by hand quite a bit afterward. They vary: check out the specs people post and how they differ from Albion's published specs. Check out the blades Albion sometimes sells off that have uneven grinds, wandering fullers, etc. People still are heavily involved in making their stuff, as some recent posts highlighting QC issues prove. They're made by humans, helped along by machines.

3) DSA swords may be more durable than some, but that doesn't make them better or more accurate. A tire iron can more durable than a sword. Doesn't make it better. Happy DSA swords have long been thought of as durable, but that durability can come at the expense of proper looks and handling. I personally want my swords to be as durable as historical pieces, but I won't accept compromises from overbuilding them to modern expectations. But that's me. Happy

My advice would be to learn as much as you want about swords and then make your buying decisions accordingly. Even a $300 sword is a chunk of money to spend. Get something you know you'll be happy with. Maybe it's the DSA; maybe you'll find some company or style of sword you like better.

Happy

ChadA

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A Pevost




Location: Canada
Joined: 02 Nov 2014

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon 03 Nov, 2014 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: what you you guys think of DSA today? (2014)         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
A Pevost wrote:

I apologise if my tone was a little aggressive or accusatory in my initial post. From what I could tell, DSA products, though generally cheap to mid-range in price still seemed to be a cut above the rest of the competition in that price range, given that they were hand made. I admit I know very little about swords and how a sword is supposed to feel or handle. But as far as I could tell from reviews and such, a DSA weapon was gonna be more durable and it was gonna last a good while longer than the other competion in the 300 - 500 dollar price range. I was just a little frustrated that my best shot at a decent sword was being unfairly compared to laser-cut prefection and tossed aside because it didn't sport a $1200 price tag and couldn't have fooled Charlemagne. But hey, I do understand that greater price often = greater quality and who knows, maybe if really get into this hobby, it might be worth eventually trying saving up for a fancy Albion Happy.
By the way, I've read that review before, and I'm inclined to dismiss that case as a 'lemon' in the batch. No one else has seemed to have as serious and dangerous a problem as that individual (with dsa's recent production runs anyway). Or if they have, they haven't been reported.


A few points:

1) Pretty much any sword you buy nowadays will use modern manufacturing techniques and modern materials. It's all a question of how much inaccuracy you can stand. Happy But they're pretty much all made in ways and with things our ancestors didn't have. And our ancestors used water wheels and other things to grind swords sometimes. They weren't all forged start to finish. Nowadays, people including DSA, use electrically powered grinders in certain stages. DSA is really no more or less handmade than Windlass or some others in the price range that do a better job of capturing historical looks and feel.

2) Albion's aren't laser-cut and they're not perfection. They do use a CNC machine for their blades (as do some other companies). But the blades are still ground by hand quite a bit afterward. They vary: check out the specs people post and how they differ from Albion's published specs. Check out the blades Albion sometimes sells off that have uneven grinds, wandering fullers, etc. People still are heavily involved in making their stuff, as some recent posts highlighting QC issues prove. They're made by humans, helped along by machines.

3) DSA swords may be more durable than some, but that doesn't make them better or more accurate. A tire iron can more durable than a sword. Doesn't make it better. Happy DSA swords have long been thought of as durable, but that durability can come at the expense of proper looks and handling. I personally want my swords to be as durable as historical pieces, but I won't accept compromises from overbuilding them to modern expectations. But that's me. Happy

My advice would be to learn as much as you want about swords and then make your buying decisions accordingly. Even a $300 sword is a chunk of money to spend. Get something you know you'll be happy with. Maybe it's the DSA; maybe you'll find some company or style of sword you like better.


I see. And i certainly do intend to learn more on this subject. Swords are pretty cool Happy.
One question though(from an academic perspective), what comprises historical looks and feels? i would imagine that without the tech we have today, there would have been some considerable variations in the handling of individual swords, right? I mean, they didn't have digital scales and calipers to ensure (relative) exactitude over and over again. If a smith forged a dozen swords, would they not all handle a little differently? Confused And isn't it feasible that smiths of the era would have let their creativity influence or inspire the weapon's design from time-to-time as well (though still creating an efficient combat tool to defeat the current armor tech). hope i'm not coming across as argumentative with the constant responses, but i'm genuinely curious. Happy

I do not believe in experts. Experts are a fictitious race of beings who, according to mythology, know absolutely everything there is to learn about a particular subject.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Nov, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: what you you guys think of DSA today? (2014)         Reply with quote

Historical looks and feel is a huge topic. Happy For starters, check out this topic: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26327 . It shows one way some swords of the middle ages might have been designed. It shows there were likely geometric principles that governed the proportions of components. That's how cathedrals were designed, for example.

The vast majority of historical swords exhibit a type of visual harmoniousness that low-priced swords often miss. Certainly getting the proportions right is key. For example, some low-priced swords have thick clunky crossguards. This throws off the visual harmony of the piece, and could affect handling, too. Some makers assume a wheel pommel should have a uniform thickness; many historical wheel pommels are thicker at the base of the grip and thinner at the peen. This could be partially because of how the medieval smith made the pommel (drifting a hole for the tang might compress and thicken the bottom). In addition to keeping some mass near the grip, that fat-bottomed shape when viewed from the side contributes to authentic visual appeal.

Many designers of low-priced swords study swords in books and don't spend much time in museums. That's partially how they keep prices low, as research and travel can be expensive. But this can lead to swords being treated as 2D objects because they only have access to 2D printed pictures. Swords are 3D objects. Blade thickness and rates of taper are 3rd dimension things. Some pommel shapes are a 3D thing, too. You have to look at it all from as many angles as possible.

It's hard to explain all the intricacies of historical look. You have to have looked at enough swords to start to get a feel. Start, though, with pieces that are fairly exact replicas of famous swords. Put the original and replica side by side in separate windows on your monitor. Compare and contrast.

Feel is another huge topic, too. Happy Handling/feel should be based mostly on a sword's intended function (cut-biased, thrust-biased, or blended in varying proportions). A sword needs to be weighted and balanced to do its intended job. Too heavy (or too light), and it can fail at its purpose. If the sword is hard to control, it may fail at its purpose. If it transmits large amounts of vibrations to the hand during a strike, that can impede its function and possibly lead to damage of the sword. Smiths/designers/cutler can move metal around to a degree to control overall weight/balance/perceived weight. The good ones follow historical patterns, which varied widely.

There was a ton of variety in medieval swords. But they still had to fit large certain parameters of form and function based on era/function/locale. So even if a smith forged a dozen swords* which all were slightly different they should all fall within certain ranges of normalcy if they are to function properly and fit the visual standards of the time.

*the idea of a solitary smith working alone, putting out complete swords, doesn't usually fit history. In many cases, there were shops of bladesmiths that just made blades. Cutlers could take those blades and hilt them. Then scabbard makers might do their work.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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A Pevost




Location: Canada
Joined: 02 Nov 2014

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon 03 Nov, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: what you you guys think of DSA today? (2014)         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Historical looks and feel is a huge topic. Happy For starters, check out this topic: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26327 . It shows one way some swords of the middle ages might have been designed. It shows there were likely geometric principles that governed the proportions of components. That's how cathedrals were designed, for example.

The vast majority of historical swords exhibit a type of visual harmoniousness that low-priced swords often miss. Certainly getting the proportions right is key. For example, some low-priced swords have thick clunky crossguards. This throws off the visual harmony of the piece, and could affect handling, too. Some makers assume a wheel pommel should have a uniform thickness; many historical wheel pommels are thicker at the base of the grip and thinner at the peen. This could be partially because of how the medieval smith made the pommel (drifting a hole for the tang might compress and thicken the bottom). In addition to keeping some mass near the grip, that fat-bottomed shape when viewed from the side contributes to authentic visual appeal.

Many designers of low-priced swords study swords in books and don't spend much time in museums. That's partially how they keep prices low, as research and travel can be expensive. But this can lead to swords being treated as 2D objects because they only have access to 2D printed pictures. Swords are 3D objects. Blade thickness and rates of taper are 3rd dimension things. Some pommel shapes are a 3D thing, too. You have to look at it all from as many angles as possible.

It's hard to explain all the intricacies of historical look. You have to have looked at enough swords to start to get a feel. Start, though, with pieces that are fairly exact replicas of famous swords. Put the original and replica side by side in separate windows on your monitor. Compare and contrast.

Feel is another huge topic, too. Happy Handling/feel should be based mostly on a sword's intended function (cut-biased, thrust-biased, or blended in varying proportions). A sword needs to be weighted and balanced to do its intended job. Too heavy (or too light), and it can fail at its purpose. If the sword is hard to control, it may fail at its purpose. If it transmits large amounts of vibrations to the hand during a strike, that can impede its function and possibly lead to damage of the sword. Smiths/designers/cutler can move metal around to a degree to control overall weight/balance/perceived weight. The good ones follow historical patterns, which varied widely.

There was a ton of variety in medieval swords. But they still had to fit large certain parameters of form and function based on era/function/locale. So even if a smith forged a dozen swords* which all were slightly different they should all fall within certain ranges of normalcy if they are to function properly and fit the visual standards of the time.

*the idea of a solitary smith working alone, putting out complete swords, doesn't usually fit history. In many cases, there were shops of bladesmiths that just made blades. Cutlers could take those blades and hilt them. Then scabbard makers might do their work.


Cool. thanks for the info Happy

I do not believe in experts. Experts are a fictitious race of beings who, according to mythology, know absolutely everything there is to learn about a particular subject.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,968

PostPosted: Fri 14 Nov, 2014 10:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Two of the latest Darksword Armory swords reviewed

The Wolfsbane

http://www.sword-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23383

The Einar

http://www.sword-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23855

Cheers

GC
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William Swiger




Location: Reston, VA
Joined: 23 Feb 2011
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Reading list: 9 books

Posts: 443

PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2014 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just wanted to put out that reviews of swords and other weapons on SBG reflects the reviewers personal opinion of the weapon being reviewed. We have members with varied levels of experience and expertise posting reviews/impressions from novice to well seasoned collectors. Wink
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