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P. Cha
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 Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | | P. Cha wrote: |
Nope, wrong info. The DSA current swords are just a smidge over 1mm...not nearly 1.5mm. They use to have a beefy 2.2mm edge which was perfect as a stage sword...but that is no longer true. And of course you are completely ignoring the fact that the DSA blades will NOT flex and have sharp deadly points...both of which for sparring is pretty spectacularly bad. If you wish to continue to ignore such facts to try and save a few bucks...well your choice...but you have been pretty throughly warned against this. |
The 2011 production run for th DS Danish two hander sword (and most of their stuff) is 1.4mm edge. My group uses BKS swords, so having no distal taper or flex is nothing new. And thrusting legal weapons use thrusting caps of 1/4 in steel over the pointy end. These are right up my alley actually |
BKS swords are also designed as stage swords...not sparring swords. They are built differently for different needs. Sigh...should I get worried about seeing you and your group in a bad way on the news? Please listen carefully, sharp points (capped or not...caps can fall off after all) is NOT a good thing for sparring. No flex in the blade means you can have a mishap and end up breaking a rib...even though armor. Somebody slip and have their entire weight going forward and it could be MUCH worse then just a broken rib. Now you can continue to ignore everything you are being told and do what you wanna do, but please don't try and pass this off as something that is commonly accepted or even hint that it is a good idea.
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | | The 2011 production run for th DS Danish two hander sword (and most of their stuff) is 1.4mm edge. My group uses BKS swords, so having no distal taper or flex is nothing new. And thrusting legal weapons use thrusting caps of 1/4 in steel over the pointy end. These are right up my alley actually |
Great...sounds like you've found exactly what you need/want right now which is all anybody can really hope for. If you find what you want, when you want it, I don't think you really need other people to validate your decision. Needs and wants change over time and what you're seeing in these posts is feedback from a variety of different need/want frames of reference. Darksword does not fit them all. No vendor does. Simply put people are giving you their opinion from their current frame of reference. Many of them are clearly different than your current frame of reference, so we perceive some acrimony.
I am curious, if your group has a preference for BKS, why you don't go that route since they should be a known (and trusted) entity for you?
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Tom King
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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P. Cha,
I'm a member of the Adrian Empire. We know what we're doing and our insurance policy is up to snuff as far as any accidents go. Simply because you do not participate or enjoy a method of reenactment fighting does not mean that it is illegitimate.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding the guard, it's not too bulky/thick, it's too wide. The ends appear to extend farther away from the blade's edges than the original. As for your reasons why they used the metal rainguard and different ricasso, that's decent speculation and could be correct. I would have left off the leather flap and had the guard be a bar, which would look much better IMHO and would fit better with their claims of historical accuracy than a clearly ahistorical (and to me, unattractive) feature.
| Quote: | | I really don't see why everyone is so bent out of shape over this maker. |
Simply because they make claims that are hard to back up (and are clearly incorrect in the case of the two swords based on non-existent originals). Combine that with designs of questionable originality and you tend to end up with a lot of polarization of opinions.
| Quote: | High steel quality
affordable, but historical accuracy suffers as a result
very strong, well put together swords, but are "overbuilt" in some regards and some models are excessively blade heavy
Decent scabbards, but anachronistic |
Agreed. I've not heard these points disputed. The debates have been partially about the degree to which they are inaccurate, ill-handling, and anachronistic, especially in light of their claims of accuracy.
There are other companies in the same general price point whose products look and handle better and whose marketing speak I feel comfortable with. They may not be as durable as Darksword, but that durability comes at a price (loss of characteristics I feel are important) that I simply don't wish to pay.
I've said what I had to say, so I'll allow others to continue debating for and against. 
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
Last edited by Chad Arnow on Sun 06 Nov, 2011 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pierre T.
Location: Ottawa, Canada Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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Hello
So to focus on the original question.
I'm not an expert and far from it, but I have handled a number of swords, and I have had some training in European sword fighting. I've done full contact sparring with padded weapons, and I have done drills with steel blunts and cutting exercises with sharp one. I don't own a sword from Darksword but I've handled maybe half a dozen of them, and cut with a few (pumpkins).
So, it is my somewhat educated opinion that the weapons Darksword makes are *not* appropriate for freestyle sparring. The looks "squarish" and not that wide, and would probably damage armour. Furthermore, I completely agree that they are far too stiff and pointy to use. Even if that cap was welded on, the sheer impact of a trust in a bad spot would be quite painful in the best of cases. I would refuse to take part in such a sparing match.
Hanwei has a number of "practical" swords that seem much more suitable to the task - thicker, rounder edges, rounded points and more flexible blades - and a bit lighter too. I'm not very familiar with what the other manufacturers offer, I know Albion has some but they are rather more expensive (but cheaper than their 2nd gen line). Surely there must be others.
Finally, I am going to ignore the other issues raised here about IP because I think that while very interesting, they may be best in another thread.
Cheers,
Pierre
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Joel Chesser
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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These things pretty much sound like crowbars with guards and handles.
I cant imagine one would get much knowledge about actual sparring from something like this.My understanding is that actual sparring swords are made to be safe with adjustments made so they handle like sharps. Id love to hear Bill Grandy's further comments on these points.
If safety of another person is at stake why risk something like this. You have people with knowledge telling you this is a bad idea. Why not heed the counsel?
That said I'm interested by the fact that the original svante does ( as you said) not have a rainguard. However Albion's does (in leather) and Darksword's posses one of the same shape ( in metal).
Does any other replica of this exist with this raingaurd, or can we add this to the list of thefts of other people's artistic interps?
All of this said, if you get Darksword, perhaps you would do us all the favor of writing a review for publication on this site? Or perhaps allowing one of the moderators to do a review.
My understanding is that efforts have been made by our moderators to review these pieces but they have not been able to do so as of yet.
..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."
- Luke 22:36
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | P. Cha,
I'm a member of the Adrian Empire. We know what we're doing and our insurance policy is up to snuff as far as any accidents go. Simply because you do not participate or enjoy a method of reenactment fighting does not mean that it is illegitimate. |
Famous last words...we know what we are doing while playing with sharp pointy objects...
You do realize that when almost every other group says something is a BAD idea, it just maybe a BAD idea right? I know for a fact that adrian empire has been told by many other groups that what they do for their armored combat is a BAD idea. When everyone else wont accept what you do as a safe and sane practice, that is the definition of illegitimate. I knew of a group of people who claimed that you should practice with sharp swords...so because I refuse to participate or enjoy that method of re-enactment mean I can't comment on how much of a bad idea that is? But hey, I'm just some guy on the net, your just gonna do what you want anyways so go do it. You don't have to justify squat to me...because lets face it, I'm not gonna condone the use of stage swords as sparring swords...umm ever.
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: |
I really don't see why everyone is so bent out of shape over this maker. When looked at objectively they seem to have a decent product line to fit a niche in the reenactment market. Is it a perfect 3000 dollar Albion? No, but it is it supposed to be? These swords seem to be more in competition with semi production swords like BKS's lineup (which are the favorite of my reenactment group) than Albions.
it seems like an objective review of their product line would be read like this after all the factionization is taken away
High steel quality
affordable, but historical accuracy suffers as a result
very strong, well put together swords, but are "overbuilt" in some regards and some models are excessively blade heavy
Decent scabbards, but anachronistic |
So...let me get this straight, you don't care that people are being lied to(even for marketing, what they have on their site is excessive in streching the truth...hell at one point their stats for their swords listed on their website were outright fabrications) or that they stole from other sword makers? The two main issues that got brought up means nothing to you? I can see getting a sword you like from DSA despite these issues, but to just dismiss them like they mean nothing worth taking issues with...yikes. Honestly if these things don't bother you at all, it does not speak well for your character.
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Charles Richmond
Location: Casstown Ohio Joined: 16 May 2011
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Joel Chesser wrote: | All of this said, if you get Darksword, perhaps you would do us all the favor of writing a review for publication on this site? Or perhaps allowing one of the moderators to do a review.
My understanding is that efforts have been made by our moderators to review these pieces but they have not been able to do so as of yet. |
I have in my possession, several models of DSA blades to include the following-
The 15th Century Two Handed Gothic( Old model with Fishtail pommel)
The Ranger
The Anduril
The Boromir
The Sword of Grayson
The Guardian
The Sage Sword
The Flame of Angels
I would gladly forward any of the above to an interested competent party who is interested in doing a review for publication on this forum. Moderator, owner, venerable member, ace reviewer, or what have you.
Ideally I would pick Nathan or Chad, or a member that they contacted who agreed to participate. This would be in the interest of fairness and impartiality so that the weapon could be judged solely on its attributes, and not be viewed with a jaundiced eye due to preconceived notions or a Bias. In short someone who is able to set aside the preceeding 4 pages, and judge the sword for what it is in hand.
I am admittedly a fan of several DSA models, and do not believe that I posess
A- The impartiality that would be expected, I forgive much when it involves a design that I find appealing
B- The technical proficiency to judge it based on a historical standpoint, my Hisory Fu is somewhat weak
C- The standing on this site to not have any positive comments dismissed as fanboyish
D- A solid enough background in the WMA to give any comments on handling a basis in actual practice or historical context
The above reasons exclude me from submitting a review in my mind, hence my offer to the forum so that we can increase the knowledge base with actual observations.
My offer to submit a weapon for review will of course be a blanket release for the reviewer and this forum, to include the owner and moderators of any and all liability due to any damage to said sword submitted. In short, you may read that statement as- I don't care if you bend it into a U shape and light it on fire as long as it is done in the context of a review.
Please do not read any insult or slight to any member of this forum into my above post, this offer is made in response to the quoted section at the beginning of this ramble, in the spirit and effort of contributing something useful to this forum that has given so much knowledge so freely.
I will pay shipping both ways.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | Honestly if these things don't bother you at all, it does not speak well for your character. |
Comments of a personal nature like this are out of bounds. No more comments like this, please.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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J.D. Crawford
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| Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Charles Richmond wrote: |
The 15th Century Two Handed Gothic( Old model with Fishtail pommel)
The Ranger
The Anduril
The Boromir
The Sword of Grayson
The Guardian
The Sage Sword
The Flame of Angels
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Charles, I think most or all of those swords are fantasy-inspired swords, which might not be the best picks for a community devoted to historically accurate weapons. Here's a review I did a while back on one of their 'historically inspired' swords:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=15802
Since then they've come out with some designs that, by theri own stats, appear to be lighter in build, but I have not handled these.
Intellectual property issues aside (I'm not lawyer and won't comment on that), IMHO they're free to make swords however they like and they've clearly found a target consumer group for their products. I personally think that Eyal should be more careful in the claims he makes about historical accuracy and have told him so. But as Chomsky would say, its up to the consumer to educate themselves about advertising and products. Reading this forum is one way to do that.
-JD
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Charles Richmond
Location: Casstown Ohio Joined: 16 May 2011
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Crawford
You are correct of course, and I did not truly consider that fact befor putting forth my offer.
The closest to a historical sword by DSA that I posess would be the Gothic model.
I apologize for cluttering up the thread with such a lengthy swerve off track.
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Pierre T.
Location: Ottawa, Canada Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Joel Chesser wrote: | | These things pretty much sound like crowbars with guards and handles. |
This is, perhaps, overly harsh. They aren't *that* bad. But they definitely are "beaters".
| Quote: | | I cant imagine one would get much knowledge about actual sparring from something like this.My understanding is that actual sparring swords are made to be safe with adjustments made so they handle like sharps. Id love to hear Bill Grandy's further comments on these points. |
That's an important point... a sparing weapon should not be built like an authentic one, it needs to be redesigned. The point has to be round, the blade has to have flex, etc etc. Darksword offers simply blunt and sharp versions of the *same swords*. There is nothing wrong with this - non-sharp swords are safer than sharpened ones, and can be used for som things (drills etc). But if you want to spar, then it IS a problem.
That being said, Darksword *does* have a sword that probably could be used for life sparring:
http://www.darksword-armory.com/1346-Reenactm...Sword.html
I don't know about the flex, but the profile seems a lot safer than any of their other offerings - and that's because it was *designed* for that function.
Pierre
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Did you ever get your customs from them?
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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If entities A, B, and C are doing something wrong (copying others' designs) that doesn't make it OK for entity D to do the same thing.
Concerning the metal rainguard on the Darksword Svante - if a leather rainguard is too expensive to make, no rainguard at all is a better choice than that metal puzzlement - in my opinion, a bad artistic decision.
I wonder if any of those that champion Darkswords as good reenactment swords have tried an Albion Maestro. They are only a couple of hundred dollars more, and are the designs favored by many in the WMA community. If you gave one a practice run, I bet you would like it. They are safer, livelier, more like a real sword, but not as durable as a crowbar.
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Brandt Giese
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| Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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I have a knight sword and dagger that I will sell cheap!!!
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Joel Chesser wrote: | These things pretty much sound like crowbars with guards and handles.
I cant imagine one would get much knowledge about actual sparring from something like this.My understanding is that actual sparring swords are made to be safe with adjustments made so they handle like sharps. Id love to hear Bill Grandy's further comments on these points. |
Well, *if* we are assuming that a person's goal is to learn realistic martial arts, then the more realistic the tool, the more realistic the learning process. Now, it is quite possible to gain some basic learning from non-realistic sword. For example, you can start teaching a beginner with a broom stick which isn't the same weight, balance, or feel of a real sword, and that person can still get a basic foundation. Yes, the techniques will be distorted, but it certainly is a better than nothing. The same is technically true of a sword that is too heavy or with poor handling characteristics.
The problem is that you actually have to invest real money into a Darksword, and of the ones I've handled, they just are not worth the price. There's a saying, "I'm too poor to buy cheap things." If you actually want a sword that replicates a real sword, I just don't feel like Darksword is even a good "budget" option. Quite frankly, you're throwing away a couple hundred dollars for something that just doesn't really fit the bill. That's not cheap, and I'm a little surprised to see people defending the price point. For very little more, you can find a quality martial arts weapon that will last you, and that you'll be so much happier with in the long run.
However, *if* realism, martial arts, and historical context don't matter to a buyer, then my comments may be null and void.
As to durability, I personally don't care if they can beat up a car. I can do that with a $10 child's baseball bat. That doesn't make it a good sword. I realize that not everyone's goals will match mine. But if you are interested in realistic martial arts, you should be interested in realistic weapons to get a better understanding of realistic movement dynamics. In my opinion, there are better options out there, even when taking price into consideration.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Andrew Howe
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2011 5:22 am Post subject: |
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[citation needed]
You show a picture for Darksword but a drawing for Albion? I sense a good deal of bias in this.
Too be honest, I really don't see it as economically responsible to use an Albion for WMA when you can potentially break it. They are just too expensive to be anything but display swords, but at that point I see it as somewhat pointless to go to such lengths for accurate weight.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2011 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew Howe wrote: |
[citation needed]
You show a picture for Darksword but a drawing for Albion? I sense a good deal of bias in this.
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That drawing is what's easily accessible on Albion's site, which is probably why it was posted. I'd call it lazy posting (), not bias. In fact, some easy to find pictures show Albion's tangs being much more substantial than the Darksword tang in that pic.
Here is a picture from another thread on this site:
Or from Albion's site:
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: |
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I'm with Bill on this one. If you want to learn a historical art, use a tool that closely approximates (or matches) a historical one. I'm not a trained martial artist, but my experience shows that martial techniques and weapon durability go hand in hand. For me, this means using good techniques means the sword has a lesser chance of being damaged. And using a good sword means the techniques are easier to accomplish. If someone needs an overly-durable sword, it raises questions about how correct their techniques and usage are.
Of course, the OP is talking about using these against armoured people in a non-lethal situation (we all hope), so that changes things a little bit (but not as much as some would have you believe).
However, if you want to learn to paint like Rembrandt, don't use a roller and/or spraypaint and expect it to work. Use materials (paint, brushes) that get as close to what he used as modern markets, manufacturing techniques, and budgets allow. Otherwise, you'll have a lot of trouble replicating his techniques and results. Right tool for the right job, etc.
As to this point:
| Quote: | | Too be honest, I really don't see it as economically responsible to use an Albion for WMA when you can potentially break it. They are just too expensive to be anything but display swords, but at that point I see it as somewhat pointless to go to such lengths for accurate weight. |
As has been mentioned, any sword can break, especially if improper techniques and circumstances are used. My Albions have been cut with numerous time and have performed great. In addition to cutting the materials I've tried to cut (melons, pumpkins, pool noodles, etc.), I've also inadvertently hit cement pavers, PVC pipe, and a 2 x 10 board with them. No damage. The only damage a sword of mine has received is when it was knocked over and fell hard against another blade. This was the equivalent of a static, edge-on-edge dead stop block between two very sharp blades. It got knicked, as you'd except any sharp sword to do in the same situation in battle. In fact, the knick looked exactly the same as the knicks you see on the edges of period swords. It's why you should avoid static edge on edge blocks (not looking for debate on that subject right now!), but should try to parry properly. In short, it was damaged because of carelessness that approximated the results of bad technique; it wasn't damaged because of proper use.
Again it all goes back to how closely someone wants to replicate historical techniques with arms and armour. If accuracy of weapon and technique are no concern at all, buy what appeals to you.
It shouldn't be surprising that many people on this forum (billed at the top of every page as "A Resource for Historic Arms and Armour Collectors") prefer historical things. It shouldn't be a surprise that many people here will push people toward historical things and away from things that deviate strongly from historical norms.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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