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Colt Reeves
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 Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | | ...My only concern is the suitability of their products (without modification or special ordering) for armored combat... The destruction tests on their site make me a firm believer that they could handle anything i could at them, but i don't want to crease my buddies armor with every swing or have it go saw bladed after a few months of moderate use. |
I think the above highlighted sections are the important parts of the OP. Unless I'm mistaken, people have addressed the first and third with talk of edge and durability, but I think some clarification might be needed for the second. The question I have here is this: Do you intend to use unarmoured techniques with armour to protect yourself or do you intend to do half-swording and the like? You mention swinging, which leads me to think the first, but it may help to make that clear.
I say this because it has been my impression that half-swording would not depend on balance and distal taper anywhere near as much as the unarmoured techniques if at all and thus one could use the proverbial sharpened crowbar quite successfully in half-swording. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this point. I'm no expert.
My 2 cents if you are doing unarmoured techniques: I should think the quality of the sword is less important when it comes to "creasing your buddies armor" than the quality/thickness of the armour, the sheer weight of the sword, and the power of your swing. If your buddy is wearing 18 gauge Windlass pieces and you're a big dude swinging a 4 pound sword with all your might... Well I don't think I need to go any further here.
| Chad Arnow wrote: |
...Their Svante sword has a weird metal thing where a leather flap should be. I can see leaving the leather flap off if it takes to much effort to reproduce, but replacing it with a weirdly shaped metal addition to the guard looks strange and will affect mass distribution... |
Considering they are said to be badly balanced with little distal taper, does the addition of the metal really matter? Seems kind of like complaining that the left mirror was torn off of a car that has no engine and is missing the wheels. (This question is more retorical than anything else...)
| Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote: |
All issues and predispositions aside, would you rather be given a comparable MRL sword or one from Darksword armoury if you found yourself in a very dire combat situation on which your life depended, and you were afforded no other choices? Which particular weapon would you actually choose? Could it be from another comparable maker? |
I don't have a Darksword to give an informed opinion, but I am not the strongest or have a lot of mass to my frame, and thus I would go with a Windlass over a Darksword for simple weight reasons. Off the top of my head, without more information on exactly what I would be facing I would probably take my Great Ouse River sword. It is a joke of a thrusting sword, on the whippy side, and not a very good cutter either, but it is light and quick. Sometimes it isn't the amount of damage that counts, but who hits who first. 
Now if you opened the door to what maker I'd go with, I'd probably pick Albion's Brescia Spadona, or if unable to try it out first, my Tinker Pearce Longsword. That last I know for sure is nice and light, easy to wield, and better than the Great Ouse in pretty much every way. If my life is at stake it is better to go with something I am familiar with and avoid picking something I might find doesn't suit me.
Wait... | Quote: | | Which particular weapon would you actually choose? |
You didn't say sword... For my weapon I choose an assault rifle. 
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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W. Knight
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | W. Knight wrote: | | I suppose it just puzzles me how Darksword is accused of downright deception, when so many other companies seem to do the same thing. |
I think Darksword is "accused" in this thread, because Darksword is the topic of discussion in this thread. Not all of the other companies you mention. That being the case, shouldn't we expect Darksword to be the central topic? Perhaps this has been brewing for a while and you've merely found a proverbial straw? |
Perhaps, but my point is that Darksword is not doing anything different than Deepeeka, Windlass, Hanwei/Tinker, Del Tin, Valiant Armoury, Scorpion swords, and Kris Cutlery (just to name the companies whose swords I own, though there are many more) have been doing for years and years, in terms of representing products as historical types or even general replicas based on specific original pieces. My puzzlement arises from the fact that some can single out Darksword, and completely, conciously ignore all these other companies. 
I have been collecting since the first Lord of the Rings movie came out on DVD and I made the decision to purchase the "Sting" movie sword replica made by The Noble Collection. I was delighted by it, and hooked on swords and medieval armor (something I already had an interest in) ever since. My early collection contained some lousy swords I would not have bought had I known more, but as I learn more and more, I can make better informed decisions. The knowledge I have attained since then has led me to believe that Darksword offers the highest quality beaters on the market. Not high on the historical accuracy scale, but the barest of research reveals this. The only thing I think one could legitimately say is that a complete newbie (like I once was) might think he is getting an accurate replica, just because of his lack of knowledge, but this can be said of every single low cost production sword company in existence.
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W. Knight
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 10:48 am Post subject: |
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As far as the "copying" issue, there can be no excuse for deliberately stealing someone else's IP (which a sword design is).
However, let me liken this to an analogy.
Imagine you are endeavoring to create a new translation of the Old English poem, "Beowulf" in the English language. Ok, there are numerous translations in this language already. You are obviously trying to create a replica (of sorts) of the original, meaning there are certain parameters that must be followed. After all -- your translation, even if it contains some artistic differences to the original (in order to achieve the particular aim you are after, whether this be complete accuracy, a more paraphrased easily readable English version, or you insist on preserving alliteration and verse form) it will still be confined to what the original poem said. So, this means that since there are only so many ways to say something in the English language, your translation will inevitably have some very, very similar passages to your fellow translators, and maybe even a few identical ones!
Perhaps applying this analogy to the translation of period original swords to modern replica swords can be helpful. After all, there are only so many ways to make the parts to a sword, while keeping both the original, and the cost of production relative to the price point aimed for, in mind. So, I, personally, would have to consider things like numbers of facets on a pommel, or numbers of fullers to be some areas where different companies using the same solution as totally acceptable. Outright copying of a modern swordmaker's original cannot be so justified, but I think Darksword has learned form the few past mistakes they made in this area?
(these points have already been touched on earlier in the thread, but as there are two accusations I see against them, I did not want to comment on one issue without commenting on the other, perhaps even more important issue as well)
Last edited by W. Knight on Sat 05 Nov, 2011 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| W. Knight wrote: | As far as the "copying" issue, there can be no excuse for deliberately stealing someone else's IP (which a sword design is).
However, let me liken this to an analogy. |
Regarding what is deliberate or not (intent), who knows? That's up to the makers to decide amongst themselves. I'd prefer not to guess about such things as I find it irresponsible to do that sort of thing. Your analogy is not helpful because as a matter of law it is not applicable.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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W. Knight
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Robinson,
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I know if I make a "Beowulf" translation and use enough of the exact same text as Seamus Heaney used in his fairly recent translation, I will most definitely be in violation of copyright law.
And if there are no such laws regarding the copying of swords among manufacturers, then why has the issue of IP laws been brought up at all?
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| W. Knight wrote: | | Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I know if I make a "Beowulf" translation and use enough of the exact same text as Seamus Heaney used in his fairly recent translation, I will most definitely be in violation of copyright law. |
The original Beowulf is an Old English poem is not protected by copyright law. It is now in the public domain. Since we're talking about copying originals vs. copying other interpretations, this entire subject is getting cloudy. Translations and interpretations are examples of original works and are considered on their own merits. Should you want to learn more about copyright law and IP protection (which I suggest you do before attempting to explain the situation with analogies or other means), please do so. This site is not the place to learn about that subject.
| Quote: | | And if there are no such laws regarding the copying of swords among manufacturers, then why has the issue of IP laws been brought up at all? |
Because it applies to this subject. The subject of copying sword designs of other makers has been acknowledged by the maker, which is one reason I find it odd that anyone would want to defend the issue at hand. That seems irrational to me.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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W. Knight
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Robinson,
I am using the analogy of making a modern "replica" of a text from centuries past, when many modern replicas of this text (all protected by the issue of IP rights) have already been made.
One of the issues I see here in this thread is the making of modern "replicas" of swords from centuries past, when many modern replicas of these swords (all protected by the issue of IP rights) have already been made.
I'm not sure how cleaver or astute this particular analogy was, but it gets the point across and I think is quite relevant to the issue and laws addressed.
In any case, I am not defending stealing someone else's IP, so I hope we can agee there at least.  Just wondering if it even matters if some of the "copying" is unavoidabe (as my analogy also was intended to illustrate) or simply a thing of the past (if they have indeed ceased to copy any modern swordmakers' original designs, which I hope they have?)
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 11:55 am Post subject: |
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W.,
You list these sword makers as doing the same things as Darksword: Deepeeka, Windlass, Hanwei/Tinker, Del Tin, Valiant Armoury, Scorpion swords, and Kris Cutlery. Not entirely true and in some cases, patently untrue.
I don't look at Depeeka's offerings enough to know what they do or don't do. Their product line doesn't interest me. Their quality is low but I'm not aware of them making claims that their pieces are based on particular originals, but I could be wrong.
It's true that Windlass (among others) has made dubious claims of accuracy in the past in terms of attributing replicas to extant originals. But they have changed and that stuff seems to happen less. And MRL has indeed taken designs previously made by their suppliers (Del Tin, among others) and has had them instead produced by their owner, Windlass Steelcrafts. But again, that's in the past. MRL has actually incorporated some info found on this site and others to make things more accurate. Their current business practices seem to focus less on the copy of other people's designs and more on their own designs, which are often these days not based on extant originals (and don't claim to be).
Hanwei/Tinker: The new H/T stuff are not meant to be exact copies of historical originals and they don't claim to be. They are "inspired by" and do a darn good job for the price (apart from the hex nut business some come with). The non-Tinker Hanwei stuff goes to the originals first and doesn't seem to borrow from other makers. Hanwei's now-discontinued Edward III was not a copy of A&A's. They had enough differences to show that one didn't copy the other.
Del Tin copies historical swords and items found in period art. Items they say are based on historical pieces are. There are no mis-attributions.
Valiant's designs are "inspired by" historical pieces, but are modern takes. They don't claim otherwise.
Ditto Kris Cutlery as far as I know. I don't know anything about Scorpion.
Darksword claims historical accuracy and battle readiness as many others do. Like others, they seem to have made changes (in varying levels) to some base designs to appeal to their buyers, fit production methodologies, control costs, etc. That's not the issue for me. The issue is in items being listed as being based on specific originals, when they are clearly not or when they have significant enough deviations that another label would work better. Combine this fact with the cases of design appropriation (Jody Samson swords) and other non-endearing past business practices and you'll see why many are not hesitant with criticism.
It's one to have questionable historical accuracy. Many companies fall into that category with general marketing hype. It's quite another thing to make repeated, strong claims of accuracy, including attributions to historical pieces that don't exist.
Do some homework: look around and see how often any of the afore-mentioned companies (Deepeeka, Windlass, Hanwei/Tinker, Del Tin, Valiant Armoury, Scorpion swords, and Kris Cutlery) claim to base items on a specific historical piece when that isn't the case. Let me know what you find.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Tod Glenn
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: |
Hanwei/Tinker: The new H/T stuff are not meant to be exact copies of historical originals and they don't claim to be. They are "inspired by" and do a darn good job for the price (apart from the hex nut business some come with). |
Since the H/T stuff seems designed for the WMA/HEMA practitioner, not the historical collector, the hex assembly makes a lot of sense. As a sport fencer and WMA practitioner, I can tell you that blades break all the time - even the
'high quality' ones. It's a lot cheaper to replace a blade than buy a new sword.
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W. Knight
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Tod Glenn wrote: | Since the H/T stuff seems designed for the WMA/HEMA practitioner, not the historical collector, the hex assembly makes a lot of sense. As a sport fencer and WMA practitioner, I can tell you that blades break all the time - even the
'high quality' ones. It's a lot cheaper to replace a blade than buy a new sword. |
I totally understand. That still doesn't change the fact that it is ahistoric (a fact) and ugly (my opinion).
Those are deviations made for (more or less) understandable reasons. And again, they aren't claiming to be specific copies and they've acknowledged why they have that feature.
That isn't what we're talking about with Darksword. They claim accuracy, claim to base things on specific originals when some are not, and offer no explanation on why they deviate from originals when there are swords that are (more or less) based on historical pieces.
Let's not cloud the discussion any further.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Tom King
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, you guys really flame warred this. 9/10th of this feed is people angry at a munitions grade sword company daring to make the same type of swords as Albion. The Svante happens to cost $3,573 and the Dane is $1800. getting a weapon in the same style 12% of the price of the comparable Albion seems to be a good deal to me. I do full steel combat as a rec sport. My last 2 hander (HT longsword) has the screw tang strip and i have changed the focus of my kit and i am trying to find a replacement. So the only grains of truth about the weapons Darksword makes are that they are near unbreakable and as such, blade heavy and a bit less responsive. At a bit under 3 pounds, the Darksword Two handed Danish Sword doesn't seem overly heavy for a sword with a 40in blade but the pob is the question. So my unanswered question is what is the edge profile of one of their unsharpened swords. Some people say they have thick deepeekalike edges and others say they are more like windlass weapons. Which is true?
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | | Wow, you guys really flame warred this. 9/10th of this feed is people angry at a munitions grade sword company daring to make the same type of swords as Albion. The Svante happens to cost $3,573 and the Dane is $1800. getting a weapon in the same style 12% of the price of the comparable Albion seems to be a good deal to me. I do full steel combat as a rec sport. My last 2 hander (HT longsword) has the screw tang strip and i have changed the focus of my kit and i am trying to find a replacement. So the only grains of truth about the weapons Darksword makes are that they are near unbreakable and as such, blade heavy and a bit less responsive. At a bit under 3 pounds, the Darksword Two handed Danish Sword doesn't seem overly heavy for a sword with a 40in blade but the pob is the question. So my unanswered question is what is the edge profile of one of their unsharpened swords. Some people say they have thick deepeekalike edges and others say they are more like windlass weapons. Which is true? |
Tom,
To say it's about "people angry at a munitions grade sword company daring to make the same type of swords as Albion" is missing the point and is trying to fan the flames you claim are present (which are not, yet).
It's not about both companies having the same types in general. It's about whether Darksword use its own designs or borrow (more or less heavily) from others. It's about whether their ad copy matches their products or facts in general. It's about whether the products capture a feel for historical accuracy that is appropriate for their price range, intended audience, and the claims made on their site.
Darksword would be a good deal if their items matched historical looks, handling, and other characteristics more closely. But they don't and it can't all be blamed on price. Take their Svante. Would it cost any more (or much more) to have not added that big chunk of metal in place of a leather flap or to have made the ricasso closer in form to the original? Or to have made the guard a little less wide so it matched the original? I doubt it. I'm willing to give a pass on inaccuracies aimed at reducing price. But inaccuracies that seem to have no purpose are another story.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Tom King
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: |
Darksword would be a good deal if their items matched historical looks, handling, and other characteristics more closely. But they don't and it can't all be blamed on price. Take their Svante. Would it cost any more (or much more) to have not added that big chunk of metal in place of a leather flap or to have made the ricasso closer in form to the original? Or to have made the guard a little less wide so it matched the original? I doubt it. I'm willing to give a pass on inaccuracies aimed at reducing price. But inaccuracies that seem to have no purpose are another story. |
Both of these discrepancies from the original museum piece seem to be less lack of historical accuracy and more an attempt to keep the sword as bulletproof as the others in their line. A delicate leather rain guard would get rather ruined the way they expect their product to be used over time. Besides, since the original has no visible rain guard, having one would just stir the pot of design stealing allegations. And the cross guard doesn't seem any bulkier than on the Albion version. In my view as a CNC machinist, the ricasso shape is probably due to the fact that the slower swell removes less metal than a right angled flare, drastically cutting down on machining time. (Or it is easier to forge and saves time on a production sword if they are actually made hammer and anvil like in their promo video) Also, since strength seems to be the main focus of their products, wouldn't a slow swell be better, like with tang construction?
I really don't see why everyone is so bent out of shape over this maker. When looked at objectively they seem to have a decent product line to fit a niche in the reenactment market. Is it a perfect 3000 dollar Albion? No, but it is it supposed to be? These swords seem to be more in competition with semi production swords like BKS's lineup (which are the favorite of my reenactment group) than Albions.
it seems like an objective review of their product line would be read like this after all the factionization is taken away
High steel quality
affordable, but historical accuracy suffers as a result
very strong, well put together swords, but are "overbuilt" in some regards and some models are excessively blade heavy
Decent scabbards, but anachronistic
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Suitability of Darksword armory weapons for armored comb |
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| Tom King wrote: | From what I've seen of Darksword, their products seem to be great. My only concern is the suitability of their products (without modification or special ordering) for armored combat. The swords are listed as blunt, but there is obviously a world of difference between blunted and unsharpened. The destruction tests on their site make me a firm believer that they could handle anything i could at them, but i don't want to crease my buddies armor with every swing or have it go saw bladed after a few months of moderate use. It would be much appreciated if anyone could offer their experiences with Darksword products, particularly the two handed medieval Danish Sword and the Two Handed Sword of Svante Nilsson.
http://www.darksword-armory.com/1352%20-%20Tw...Sword.html
http://www.darksword-armory.com/1347%20-%20me...lsson.html |
I am just a spectator in the stands and do see that the original questions seem to get lost but at the same time Tom, you may be overlooking other opportunity to field these questions to folks that are actually buying these two swords. From what I have read of initial impressions and a couple/few grip issues; Your intent to employ them for sword on sword sword vs armor reads as a bit shortsighted to me. Neither offering was designed as a stage or re-enactment piece for heavy contact. I'd dig them up, as I have browsed through a few such threads at the SBG but to be perfectly honest it is more worth your time to investigate further than my pointing out what should be obvious about such a mis match of purpose.
Are there other Darksword swords that might fit your bill? If you are really concerned about that and warranty, contact Eyal directly. My understanding is that he is not hard to communicate with if there is a sale involved. If you look further, you may find new owners disappointed with issues after heavy blows and the fact that the touted destructive testing is for demonstration only and would be regarded as sword abuse.
If you are really looking for real time feedback, read the issues some are dealing with in overusing any sword but look to SBG specifically as what might be regarded their home turf for resolving loose handles, bent tangs and customers perhaps expecting more than what they thought they were getting. Eyal will be glad to tuot positive numbers for any leaning towards buying.
I will mention one thing about the designs and Eyal's productions is that he will forever explain them as "their interpretations" of a historic piece. As far as I'm concerned that pretty much absolves the idiosyncrasies of ad copy but really not in terms of Eyal's own business that is really to cater in offering lower cost examples of better made swords. The whole copy issue goes back before the Sampson designs and any that watch the low budget market will see copies of popular work..
That Darksword has been doing some catch up over the past decade is quite evident without the general squalor on either side of the fence. At the same price point, some are going to find other alternatives.
Swords getting used for bouting are going to get used up but I think you are actually stacking the deck against yourself in considering those two particular models from Darksword as more than a "pretties" suited for no more than light cutting and costume.
No reply or rebuttal needed for my buck three eighty's worth. Their goods are not in my market sector of interest aside from mentioning these two for armored combat just looks like someone not really thinking it through very well. I have already read what would be a reply, so repeating what is being said time and again will be wasted keystrokes as far as I am concerned.
Cheers
GC
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Phil D.
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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If your heart is set on a steel on steel,steel on armour " Darksword " beater then this may be your answer and only $79.I don't know anything about it except what is written so couldn't give you any first hand impressions...
http://www.darksword-armory.com/1346-Reenactm...Sword.html
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur
"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Tom King
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sword buyers guide gave me my answer. The edges are 1.4mm, about the same as my Hanwie Tinker Pearce Longsword, so great for my purposes. For what is normally a mecca of sword help and knowledge, this was rather disappointing.
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | | Sword buyers guide gave me my answer. The edges are 1.4mm, about the same as my Hanwie Tinker Pearce Longsword, so great for my purposes. For what is normally a mecca of sword help and knowledge, this was rather disappointing. |
Nope, wrong info. The DSA current swords are just a smidge over 1mm...not nearly 1.5mm. They use to have a beefy 2.2mm edge which was perfect as a stage sword...but that is no longer true. And of course you are completely ignoring the fact that the DSA blades will NOT flex and have sharp deadly points...both of which for sparring is pretty spectacularly bad. If you wish to continue to ignore such facts to try and save a few bucks...well your choice...but you have been pretty throughly warned against this.
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Tom King
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| Posted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: |
Nope, wrong info. The DSA current swords are just a smidge over 1mm...not nearly 1.5mm. They use to have a beefy 2.2mm edge which was perfect as a stage sword...but that is no longer true. And of course you are completely ignoring the fact that the DSA blades will NOT flex and have sharp deadly points...both of which for sparring is pretty spectacularly bad. If you wish to continue to ignore such facts to try and save a few bucks...well your choice...but you have been pretty throughly warned against this. |
The 2011 production run for th DS Danish two hander sword (and most of their stuff) is 1.4mm edge. My group uses BKS swords, so having no distal taper or flex is nothing new. And thrusting legal weapons use thrusting caps of 1/4 in steel over the pointy end. These are right up my alley actually
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