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David Huggins




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 6:09 am    Post subject: Viking starter kit.         Reply with quote

I was also going to recommend Historical Enterprises as a worthy outlet for basic r basic clothing which are based upon provenenced artifacts.As

As has been noted there are many other outlets claiming to sell 'authentic' viking clothing which frankly belong more to Ren Fairs and Halloween 'fancy dress'.

William P, I hope you didn't think that I was commenting on any particular group or society with my remarks on 'Eastern' style viking age re-enactors. I would expect Northern or 'Frankish' warriors in the employ of the Byzantine Empire to have a mix of cultural influences in their arms armour and clothing, which is all well and good if your aim is potray a guardsman of the Emperor but I often hear the refrain of 'I am a retired Varangian Guardsman' as an explantion for the 'Eastern' style, and often wonder how many veterans of the Guard wondered the battlefields of Central and Northern Europe.

best
Dave

and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 1:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

E. Storesund wrote:
Functional and warm woolen clothes without any fancy dyes* or decoration, worn and eventually showing signs of repair. Simple leather shoes, but otherwise barefoot to save them from wear and tear. A knife to wear in a simple, undecorated belt, a spear in the event of conflict, an axe for woodcutting - as well as perhaps a small selection of woodworking tools. A wooden peat spade, bow for hunting, perhaps a net for fishing.

I'm not so sure about the lack of decoration. After all, medieval people loved decoration, labour was really cheap, and people could do a lot themselves. For instance, the man himself could decorate his belt in the long winter evenings. His wife would weave nicely patterned (if plainly dyed) clothes, perhaps with some colourful tablet woven edging. The raw materials (wool, leather) would be widely available to a free farmer.

Gary Teuscher wrote:
I would not put a Huscarl in the "farmhand" category. They were the retainers or warband of an Earl or King - the foot equivalent of a european miles at that time.
Don't forget that "earl" or "king" were just titles. Often they (even the kings, apparently) were farmers whose farm was a little bigger than that of the others.

There is a fine line between a farmhand, an armed farmhand and an armed retainer who generally did not do other farm work. One would expect a servant to fight for his boss if needed. And in a culture where prestige was partly measured by the number of armed retainers...

Only an excessively rich king could provide his retainers with the best of the best stuff (which would add further prestige). Others, either king or farmer, would have had to budget, one way or the other...
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Don't forget that "earl" or "king" were just titles. Often they (even the kings, apparently) were farmers whose farm was a little bigger than that of the others.


A fair amount more than that actually. They would receive tribute from villages within their "earldom".

And for that matter, many knights were farmers as well, just owning a farm big enough to be called a "knights fee".

They were the "regulars" of Norse or Dane armies. Hardrada had at least 900 of them, some of the more infuential earls might have 300 or so.

They were paid retainers, and it looks as though there may have been a version of the "money fief" for huscarls, where many of a kings huscarls had lands elsewhere but were stationed with the king.

Of course, there are also members of the Hird absent at times, "away in their own lands". It would seem that many huscarls were landowners, and some recieved support from lands allocated to them.

I might add that by the time of the 10th-11th centuries, when the long danish ax seems to come into play as a common armnament - Norway and Denmark were semi-feudal in their structures, lesser landholders or those that did not own land being beholden to the greater lanholders, who in turn were tributary to the King, though sometimes this had to be enforced by force of arms, such as Hardrada's campaigns after becoming king.

They were hardly merely farmhands. It seemed a not uncommon use for them was tax (tribute) collecting as well.
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William P




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Viking starter kit.         Reply with quote

David Huggins wrote:
I was also going to recommend Historical Enterprises as a worthy outlet for basic r basic clothing which are based upon provenenced artifacts.As

As has been noted there are many other outlets claiming to sell 'authentic' viking clothing which frankly belong more to Ren Fairs and Halloween 'fancy dress'.

William P, I hope you didn't think that I was commenting on any particular group or society with my remarks on 'Eastern' style viking age re-enactors. I would expect Northern or 'Frankish' warriors in the employ of the Byzantine Empire to have a mix of cultural influences in their arms armour and clothing, which is all well and good if your aim is potray a guardsman of the Emperor but I often hear the refrain of 'I am a retired Varangian Guardsman' as an explantion for the 'Eastern' style, and often wonder how many veterans of the Guard wondered the battlefields of Central and Northern Europe.

best
Dave

that in our group is known as 'stretching the evidence'which isnt encouraged, although hardraada is one example of a person serving, becoming filthy rich, then returning home. and continuing the regular activities of a viking... until he died at stamford anyway.
a good example of evidence stretching in ur area is splint armguards. we wear armguards for reasons of combat safety, but they, contrary to popular opinion wernt worn by the guard, the only people who did where qipchaq, khazar and byzantine heavy cavalry like the klibinariphoroi

the varangian guard are a special case because of them being in byzantium. which was a cultural melting pot to begin with but they still didnt use such defenses.

how many would be wandering around after service? that depends on how many wanted to leave. but i have no doubt theyd bring their equipment back home with them. id say this is a perfectly reasonable explanation for the lamellar found at birka. itcould easily be a guardsman being buried with the stuff hed accumulated during his time in byzantium. pure speculation i know but its an idea.

but id still discourage people from wearing such a kit of steppe/ rus equipment and clothing in a group that is flatly viking, saxon and norman i.e the decades leading up the hastings.

quite frankly id rather instead try and be a vendel period saxon than a rus, if your helmet and general kit is any indication.

and even we as varangians try to not be all over the place, the reccomended look for us is that of a typcal rus, of about huskarl or boyar level roughly. with equipment as described in my last post. lamellar, almond shields, pointy helmets
bu if you want you can become a byzantine guy, maybe portraying a typical soldier or even a cataphract, or a viking, or even specialise and become a pechnang person of the steppes.

although if we have to we'll supplement our gear with 'close enoughs' like a sarcen double edged sword when the leaders sabre broke over a guys helmet during an event. (unfortunately i wasnt there to witness it)

(he subsequently ground the blade down into a dagger, like a pair of daggers in a russian museum whoes handles seem way too big to be that of an item forged to be a dagger, lending credence to the idea of it being a sword ground down after being broken.)

but i wouldnt encourage western norse renactors to have a eastern look, they should be at the very least, purely rus. which isnt the same.
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 1:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
, but he is usually (as far as I'm concerned) distinguished from the hirðmaðr, which is the typical term for a warrior in the service of an aristocrat.


Well, actually, the Huscarls were part of the Hird.

"
Quote:
The farmer asked the húskarl, as he came [back] inside the sitting room: "Who was that man outside?". The Húskarl answers; "I know I saw about as much of him, that i doubt he knows it himself". Jodurr says: "Well, did you offer him in as a guest?" He replies: "I did" Jodurr spoke: "And what did he say in reply?" "-That he wouldn't have himself be invited in by slaves. He asked you to come out".


I'd be real careful with any definition regarding ervice, servants or anything of the like when it come to military service.

Many terms reference in some manner "to serve", and not in the slave sense of the word, but more as in the police wording "to protect and serve", much as the term samurai means "to serve".

The above quotes are likely another major landowner who feels above the level of the Huscarl.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 2:28 am    Post subject: Re: Viking starter kit.         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
how many would be wandering around after service? that depends on how many wanted to leave. but i have no doubt theyd bring their equipment back home with them. id say this is a perfectly reasonable explanation for the lamellar found at birka.

Except the Birka armour was Khazar, not a Byzantine style.

Quote:
itcould easily be a guardsman being buried with the stuff hed accumulated during his time in byzantium. pure speculation i know but its an idea.

The armour wasn't buried with anyone. IIRC it was found in a workshop. It is impossible to tell who might have worn it.
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Viktor Abrahamson




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 3:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, actually, the Huscarls were part of the Hird.


It sounds like you, and you alone knows the true answers.
What do you base that upon? And where would it be the case, geographicly.
England, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden.
It may have become an military rank in the later "viking" era England (or anywere for that matter) But it does not mean the word "actually" means one thing and not another.

/Viktor
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Viktor - This comment states that Huscarls were seperate from the Hird:

Quote:
but he is usually (as far as I'm concerned) distinguished from the hirðmaðr, which is the typical term for a warrior in the service of an aristocrat.


I stated that the Huscarls were part of the Hird

Quote:
Well, actually, the Huscarls were part of the Hird.


Quote:
It sounds like you, and you alone knows the true answers.
What do you base that upon? And where would it be the case, geographicly.
England, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden.


Well, for the first part of your question, are you going to say huscarls were NOT part of the Hird?

And the second part of your question is a semantics game is seems. We have the Danish "Hlid", which is not the Hird as one example.

Now, a royal huscarl I would think would outrank that of an Earl I would presume, and there were probably differing degrees of equipment provided huscarls, probably dependent on the wealth of their employer - but they were memebrs of the Hird or it's Danish/Swedish equivalent, and of course there could be other terms used than Huscarl depending on country.

But the term Huscarl is that used for members of the "Hird", be it a royal Hird or just that of another nobleman.
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E. Storesund





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 10:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gary Teuscher wrote:

Well, actually, the Huscarls were part of the Hird.

Well, that certainly explains why Old Norse texts make a distinction between the two. I.e. "Following [the king] were 60 hirdmenn and 70 Húskarlar"
Gary Teuscher wrote:

"
Quote:
The farmer asked the húskarl, as he came [back] inside the sitting room: "Who was that man outside?". The Húskarl answers; "I know I saw about as much of him, that i doubt he knows it himself". Jodurr says: "Well, did you offer him in as a guest?" He replies: "I did" Jodurr spoke: "And what did he say in reply?" "-That he wouldn't have himself be invited in by slaves. He asked you to come out".


I'd be real careful with any definition regarding ervice, servants or anything of the like when it come to military service.

Many terms reference in some manner "to serve", and not in the slave sense of the word, but more as in the police wording "to protect and serve", much as the term samurai means "to serve".

The above quotes are likely another major landowner who feels above the level of the Huscarl

Well, now we are simply talking semantics. No text as I am aware states the term "service". That is my own chosen wording. The texts simply imply that húskarls follow orders from some person above themselves in the hierarchy, by some manner of contract.
In my above quote it is clear that the húskarl is viewed as subordinate to the master of the house, with a vulgarisation of his role in the household by being called a slave.

I still stay with my definition of húskarl as a man in the service of another. I am of course not denying the military aspects this might carry with it, but there is nothing in the word itself nor in the other contexts it appears in that suggests that it was a military function primarily.

Of course, I have lots more examples if you'd like:

Egilssaga:
"hann fór og oft um vetrum í síldfiski með
lagnarskútu og með honum húskarlar margir."


"[About Kveld-úlfr] he often went out fishing herring during wintertime with fishing ship, and several húskarls with him"

Not to mention:
"Þorgils gjallandi hét maður; hann var heimamaður Þórólfs og hafði af honum mesta virðing húskarla
hans"

-"Thorgils the crier was the name of a man; he was the manservant of Thorolf and had the most honour among his húskarls"

"Það skip lætur Þórólfur búa og fékk til húskarla sína með að fara; lét þar bera á skreið og húðir og vöru
ljósa; þar lét hann og fylgja grávöru mikla og aðra skinnavöru[...}"

-"Thorolf had the ship prepared, and had his húskarls join his venture; dried fish, hides and good wares were carried aboard [along with other leather wares. [He travels around the north sea basin trading, and eventually earns enough to keep his men with him over the winter]"

"Skalla-Grímur sótti fast smiðjuverkið, en húskarlar hans vönduðu um og þótti snemma risið"
-"Skalla-Grimr was an avid blacksmith, but his his huskarls were bothered and thought it uncessary to rise so early [out of bed]"

"Ölvir hét maður; hann var húskarl Þóris og var forstjóri og ráðamaður fyrir búi hans; hafði hann
skuldaheimtur og var féhirðir; Ölvir var af æskualdri og þó maður hinn hressasti."

-"A man was named Olvir; he was Thorir's húskarl and manager of his estate; he gathered his taxes and did the accounting. Olvir was very old, but despite this an ablebodied man"

"Þá mælti húskarl Þorfinns: "Eg ók í nótt eftir viði, og fann eg sex menn á leið, og voru það húskarlar
Ármóðs, og var það miklu fyrir dag; [...]

- Then Thorfinn's húskarl spoke: "I went out to gather wood last night, and came upon six men, they were Armods húskarls. That was long before dawn."

"Þorsteinn lét gera garð um þvera Grísartungu milli Langavatns og Gljúfurár, lét hann þar að vera
marga menn um vorið. Og er Þorsteinn hafði litið yfir verk húskarla sinna, þá reið hann heim"

-Thorstein had ordered a fence to be made across Grisatungu between Langavatns and Gljufurar, he had put there many men during the spring. And when Thorstein had inspected the work of his húskarls he rode home.

"Og er hann kom niður frá Vatni, þá sáu þeir fyrir sunnan ána naut mörg og mann hjá;
var þar húskarl Ölvalds."

- And as he came down from the lake, they saw lots of cattle and a man there, south of the river; it was Olvaldr's húskarl.

I can of course provide more, if one feels examples are lacking.
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So, what would be a Danish, Norwegian and Swedish term for an elite household warrior sworn to a jarl and who would always be close to his lord??
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E. Storesund





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
So, what would be a Danish, Norwegian and Swedish term for an elite household warrior sworn to a jarl and who would always be close to his lord??


Well, the most disambiguous term would be hirðmaðr for the western nordic at least.
Again, I'm not denying húskarls in martial settings in its entirety.

I have an analogy that illustrates an important aspect in the Old Norse mind: Generalisation.

We have the adjective "argr"(same word as modern Norwegian "arg"- i.e. "angry")
Being called argr essentially equals being called unmanly, but it had LOTS of connotations, none of the details of which really mattered. A man called argr can be either a sodomite (i.e. the recieving end of a homosexual relationship) and/or a man acting in dishonor, feeble or weak in character, overly sensitive, cowardly or lazy.)

It didn't really matter wether one is simply extremely lazy and work-shy, or if you have an (by norse standards) immoral need to get sexually penetrated, as both boil down to the one and same thing: That one embodies principles that all men should avoid. As long as the product is essentially the same, they didn't really see any need to get specific about it. Therefore it makes sense that they would see a similarity in armed retainers of the king, and worksmen in the employ of a farmer. To me it seems logical that the former is an extention of the latter.


Last edited by E. Storesund on Thu 10 Nov, 2011 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 11:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
So, what would be a Danish, Norwegian and Swedish term for an elite household warrior sworn to a jarl and who would always be close to his lord??


Well.....Huscarl Big Grin

Quote:
Well, that certainly explains why Old Norse texts make a distinction between the two. I.e. "Following [the king] were 60 hirdmenn and 70 Húskarlar"


I'd like to see more specifcs on this one.

One thing about any Hird - they were not full time soldiers, though they were the closest thing to "regulars".

So a Hirdmann or Huscarl would perfrom duties in additon to their military ones.

And I do believe the "status" could vary country to country, employer to employer.

Probably at the top end of the spectrum we had the Saxon Royal Huscarls, though Earls had Huscarls as well. But even these performed other duties than just military ones. I forget the exact specifics, but there were two huscarls of an Earl in Saxon England, 11th century I believe, who were killed by rebellious peasants when they were attempting to collect taxes.

Quote:
"A man was named Olvir; he was Thorir's húskarl and manager of his estate; he gathered his taxes and did the accounting. Olvir was very old, but despite this an ablebodied man"


Sounds like Olvir was performing non-military duties similar to that of the Huscarls mentioned above.

Quote:
-"Thorolf had the ship prepared, and had his húskarls join his venture; dried fish, hides and good wares were carried aboard [along with other leather wares. [He travels around the north sea basin trading, and eventually earns enough to keep his men with him over the winter]"


Thorolf would have had to be a least somewhat wealthy to own a ship. And the idea of gathering his huscarls to go on a "trading" romp to make money for the winter - sounds like this could have easily turned to viking depending on the sucess of the trading and whatever else may have come along.
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 11:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some quotes of Huscarls in military service:

(Tranlation)

Quote:
Thurlf, Sven's retainer [heimþegi, a variant of húskarl according to Brøndsted] erected this stone after Erik his fellow, who died when the warriors sat around [i.e. besieged] Hedeby, but he was a commander, a very brave warrior.[4][5]



Quote:
“ King Sveinn placed the stone in memory of Skarði, his retainer [himþiga or heimþegi, again a variant of húskarl], Skarde, who has sailed in the west [a possible reference to a campaign in England[11]], but who then died at Hedeby.[5][12]


Quote:
Six runestones in Denmark, DR 1, DR 3, DR 154, DR 155, DR 296, and DR 297, use the term heimþegi (pl. heimþegar), meaning "home-receiver" (i.e. one who is given a house by another).[9] The use of the term in the inscriptions suggest a strong similarity between heimþegar and housecarls: like housecarls, heimþegar are in the service of a king or lord, of whom they receive gifts (here, homes) for their service.[9] Johannes Brøndsted interpreted heimþegi as nothing more than a local (Danish) variant of húskarl.[5]


Quote:
With time, the term "housecarls" (húskarlar) came to acquire a specific sense of "retainers", in the service of a lord, in his hirð, lid or drótt (all meaning "bodyguard", "troop of retainers").[3] In Denmark, this was also the sense of the word himthige, a variant of húskarl[4][5] (see below). This meaning can be seen, for instance, on the Turinge stone :

“ Ketill and Bjôrn, they raised this stone in memory of Þorsteinn, their father; Ônundr in memory of his brother and the housecarls in memory of the just(?) (and) Ketiley in memory of her husbandman. These brothers were the best of men in the land and abroad in the retinue [lid], held their housecarls well. He fell in battle in the east in Garðar (Russia), commander of the retinue [lid], the best of landholders.[6] ”

According to Omeljan Pritsak, this Þorsteinn may have commanded the retinue of king Yaroslav I the Wise.


Now the Danes started adopting land management systems similar to that of France in the 12th century - and the huscarl terms get replaced with those more alng the line of French Feudalism.
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E. Storesund





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 11:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well those are interesting examples.
However, I have never that the húskarl was A and thus couldn't have been B, as you seem to be implying. You seem to be disregarding my aforementioned examples that have positively no military function in their context. We must assume even these peasant helpers and farmhands had military functions when needed, which is exactly what I am trying to suggest, and not much else.
Gary Teuscher wrote:

Thorolf would have had to be a least somewhat wealthy to own a ship. And the idea of gathering his huscarls to go on a "trading" romp to make money for the winter - sounds like this could have easily turned to viking depending on the sucess of the trading and whatever else may have come along.

Well, you're basing this assumption on something that didn't actually happen in the story, and nobody is claiming Thorolf wasn't wealthy. I'm certainly not suggesting that poverty presupposed having a húskarl.
Also, Olvir gathers taxes for one of the king's jarls. It only makes sense that a servant of a nobleman would do his accounting.


Olafs saga kyrra:
"4. Um liðsfjölda konungs.
Ólafr konungr hafði hundrað hirðmanna ok 60 gesta ok 60 húskarla"

"4. About the war-host of the king:
King Olaf had hundred hirdmenn, 60 gestir and 60 huskarlar"
A gestr, I believe konungs skuggsjá mentions, recieved half the pay of a hird-man. The húskarls after them, would almost seem to suggest they were payed even less, if we assume this is listed accordingly to relative status.

Sverris saga:
"mánadaginn eptir géngu 70 manna til handa Sverri, ok gerðust sumir hirðmenn hans, en sumir gestir, sumir húskarlar"
-"The monday after 70 men came to Sverri, and some were made to be his hirdmenn, and some gestir, and some húskarlar"
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
"4. About the war-host of the king:
King Olaf had hundred hirdmenn, 60 gestir and 60 huskarlar"


This appears to be the "Long Hundred" of 120 I guess?

Quote:
A gestr, I believe konungs skuggsjá mentions, recieved half the pay of a hird-man. The húskarls after them, would almost seem to suggest they were payed even less, if we assume this is listed accordingly to relative status.


I was aware of the differing ranks in the Hird, though I would not assume the huskarls are ranked lesser than gestir just by this info.

The Gestir from what I have read came later along with other "rankings" - apparently it was an attempt to have a court a bit more similar to that of Feudal Europe. In the ealier times, there does not appear to be a stratified hierachy among the Hird, though there may well have been, we just don't have any concise info regarding this.

A do recall reading about some royal Huscarls, I think in the 11th century, who were apparently "away at their own lands" and did not make the feudal muster, which could imply land ownership.

The Hird (and Huscarls) were clearly free men, and not bound to serve the king or earl for over 1 year, they renewed their oaths annually. In practice renewal of oaths may have been considered the normal thing to do, and by not renewing could antagonize their employer, but they were clearly not required to renew.

As this was voluntary, I would think that many of these may have been lanholders, an had someone to run their lands in their absence.
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
-"The monday after 70 men came to Sverri, and some were made to be his hirdmenn, and some gestir, and some húskarlar"


I wonder if their could be some interpretation issues here? Gestir und Huscarls were both normal members of a Hird.

Maybe the Hird has specific as well as general meanings?

Or perhaps some of the Hirdmen were made Gestir, and some Huscarls? With a different emphasis on the "ands" it could very well mean this.
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, now we are simply talking semantics. No text as I am aware states the term "service". That is my own chosen wording. The texts simply imply that húskarls follow orders from some person above themselves in the hierarchy, by some manner of contract.


I guess what I am trying to say here, and perhaps did not make as clear as I wanted to -

The middle ages are full of terms that indicate service, but are indications of a higher social status, particularily when relating to military service.

For instance, look at the term vassal - from latin vassus, which means servant. Vassal is also a term which actually indicated status.

Here is the term Knight:

Quote:
The word knight, from Old English cniht ("boy" or "servant"),[2] is a cognate of the German word Knecht ("servant, bondsman").[3]


The term Huscarl means literally "house man/boy", pretty close to the definition of a servant.

But it seems these terms "servant" were also terms denoting military prestige.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gary:
It is the other way around.
(in norway) All men that have sworn to serve the king are his Huskarls. This can be everything from stableboys to wealthy landowners.
These are all members of the "extended Hird." This could be divided into the "seated" and "non-seated" hird, where the "seated" are those that usually dine at the kings residence. The non-seated hird include kingsmenn asigned to tasks elsewhere, and men that have sworn to represent the king in their homeplace.

In the Kingsmirror the description of the Guests starts: "And then there are those that in addition to the huskarl name are called guests..."
The same is said about Hirdmen.

In Norway, a "Hirdman" is one of the kings bodyguards. Thus, not all members of the hird are Hirdmen.

In Denmark, or saxon england, "Huskarl" seems to be used to describe this kind of bodyguard. Probably leading to much confusion allread back then.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
the description of the Guests starts: "And then there are those that in addition to the huskarl name are called guests..."


Hmm.. Gestir? Could that be more of a temprary arrangement as opposed to other members of the Hird?

Looks like Norway and Denmark did things in reverse I guess? The Danish/Saxon term for a bodyguard is a Huscarl, while the Norwegian Huscarl is not a member of the body guard?

Perhaps this makes sense. I think the illustratons of a Huscarl as a lesser status type by E. Storesund were Norse, the references I had of a Huscarl as a bodyguard member were Danish.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 2:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Guests "are so called since they often visit places where they are not welcome."
They serve the king as scouts, medium infantry, and general hunter of his enemies.
Imagine a combination of Army Rangers, the IRS and the Gestapo.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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