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Elling Polden
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 Posted: Sun 06 Nov, 2011 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Looking at the battlefield context, the daneaxe would in any case be a specialist weapon.
In the period in question, the one handed spear is the more or less universal armament of battlefield troops. This means that even a long hafted 2m daneaxe will be outreached by pretty much everyone.
I have done quite alot of reenactment daneaxe fighitng, with various rule sets. Based on our experiments with fencing mask, full body target group combat, it is safe to say that a daneaxeman has a hard time reaching the opponents lines as long as the spear fight is going on.
Daneaxes are however quite effective against swordsmen in loose formation, as they can stop or pin them with thrusts, and make fast high-low attacks.
They can also hook and cut up close.
In either case, the daneaxe needs solid protection in order to survive spear thrusts and sword swipes. A helmet and armour, as well as a shield hanging on the shoulder would be a must for a dedicated axeman. Incidentaly, this is also the equipment of the early galloglass. 
Personaly I am inclined to think that many of the broad axeheads where mounted on a shorter, about 1 m, shaft. This makes it posible to carry the axe under the belt in addition to a sword and spear. It can then be used either in one hand as a long range hammer against the enemy shield wall, or in two hands with the shield hanging on the guige when closing in or skirmishing.
Incidentaly it also makes a conveniet walking stick: such axes where used as signs of status for norwegian freemen all the way until the 19th (!) century. This also explains why high status persons are depiced with such axes.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Bartek Strojek
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Bartek! Great to see those axes used by us, Slavs. 
P.S. About my previous question about the picture from the Bayeux tapestry, the character with a dane axe and two messengers before him, is Guy, Count of Ponthieu. So, a French count is shown with a dane axe.
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William P
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| Posted: Tue 08 Nov, 2011 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| Elling Polden wrote: | Looking at the battlefield context, the daneaxe would in any case be a specialist weapon.
In the period in question, the one handed spear is the more or less universal armament of battlefield troops. This means that even a long hafted 2m daneaxe will be outreached by pretty much everyone.
I have done quite alot of reenactment daneaxe fighitng, with various rule sets. Based on our experiments with fencing mask, full body target group combat, it is safe to say that a daneaxeman has a hard time reaching the opponents lines as long as the spear fight is going on.
Daneaxes are however quite effective against swordsmen in loose formation, as they can stop or pin them with thrusts, and make fast high-low attacks.
They can also hook and cut up close.
In either case, the daneaxe needs solid protection in order to survive spear thrusts and sword swipes. A helmet and armour, as well as a shield hanging on the shoulder would be a must for a dedicated axeman. Incidentaly, this is also the equipment of the early galloglass.
Personaly I am inclined to think that many of the broad axeheads where mounted on a shorter, about 1 m, shaft. This makes it posible to carry the axe under the belt in addition to a sword and spear. It can then be used either in one hand as a long range hammer against the enemy shield wall, or in two hands with the shield hanging on the guige when closing in or skirmishing.
Incidentaly it also makes a conveniet walking stick: such axes where used as signs of status for norwegian freemen all the way until the 19th (!) century. This also explains why high status persons are depiced with such axes. |
it has been suggested to me that daneaxes taller than a person were rarely in existance as weapons,
its been suggested to me that the varangian guard at least didnt have 6 foot axes, 5 foot axes at the very tallest.
and that as a general rule, a guardsmans axe should be tall enough to lean on, and no more than that.
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Tue 08 Nov, 2011 3:19 am Post subject: |
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Hey guys, if I might be allowed to stray off topic for a moment just to address a point raised earlier.
Sean, regarding the three differently attired men in the picture from John Derricke's Image of Irelande, another possibility that I've read is that the person without shoes or trousers represents a young attendant (notice his lack of facial hair), and not a peasant (also a peasant wouldn't waste money on the clothing material for the wide hanging sleeves seen on this figure).
A common misconception seems to be that kerns were peasant farmer types who fought on occasion on their chiefs bidding. The truth is that, like the gallowglass, they were professional mercenaries, whos upkeep was paid for, by a lord and his tenants, and when said lord could not afford to pay them anymore they would move on to look for employment elsewhere. Peasants were sometimes used in warfare in Ireland, especially from the late 16th century on, but most of the fighting was done by the pros.
Éirinn go Brách
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Tue 08 Nov, 2011 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Curtin wrote: | Hey guys, if I might be allowed to stray off topic for a moment just to address a point raised earlier.
Sean, regarding the three differently attired men in the picture from John Derricke's Image of Irelande, another possibility that I've read is that the person without shoes or trousers represents a young attendant (notice his lack of facial hair), and not a peasant (also a peasant wouldn't waste money on the clothing material for the wide hanging sleeves seen on this figure).
A common misconception seems to be that kerns were peasant farmer types who fought on occasion on their chiefs bidding. The truth is that, like the gallowglass, they were professional mercenaries, whos upkeep was paid for, by a lord and his tenants, and when said lord could not afford to pay them anymore they would move on to look for employment elsewhere. Peasants were sometimes used in warfare in Ireland, especially from the late 16th century on, but most of the fighting was done by the pros. |
Great info! Thanks, Stephen!
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Tue 08 Nov, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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William: Exept for the depictions on the bayoux tapestry, we don't have many sources on the length of axes. The bayoux tapestry axes appear to be about the length you describe. My experience is that a longer axe is preferable as a dedicated polearm. A 5ft daneaxe is more suited to overpower swordsmen in one on one situations, and even for that I would prefer a longer axe. (gives you time to dodge if you miss :P )
The 2m daneaxe can for all we know be a modern concept, but it works like a charm.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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William P
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| Posted: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Elling Polden wrote: | William: Exept for the depictions on the bayoux tapestry, we don't have many sources on the length of axes. The bayoux tapestry axes appear to be about the length you describe. My experience is that a longer axe is preferable as a dedicated polearm. A 5ft daneaxe is more suited to overpower swordsmen in one on one situations, and even for that I would prefer a longer axe. (gives you time to dodge if you miss :P )
The 2m daneaxe can for all we know be a modern concept, but it works like a charm. |
yes, and the info i was given on axe hafts, is from the new varangian guard reenactors
thanks to the fact that
1 you need to disregard your shield
2 alot of the more desireable targets with a daneaxe arnt allowed under our combat rules
3 hooking a shield aside then using the upswept 'horn' to stab immediately afterwards is dangerous for you with a 4-5 foot haft, since you can quickly be within range of his sword while you do so. if you hold it so you have enough control.
4, there is alot of danger associated with the more common use of the daneaxe i.e powerful swings. due to the
momentum
(to the point where my group has a rule that, the longer a polearm gets the lighter the head has to be in order to be considered safe. if its less than 5 foot long it can be up to 1000grms, if longer than 5 foot it can only be 700 grams or less.) fortunately, the danish axe heads made by manning imperial are around 650grams.
when they warned me about the dangers of its momentum showing me a video during a russian reenactment, where one guy needed to be carried off the field due o one guys nastily wild and heavy swinging,
, i replied. "which is PRECISELY why i dont intend to act like a mad berserker, instead planning to use it like a hook on a pole"
though i was warned against having a head high axe on the basis that they wernt that tall historically.
ive been informed the highest a danish axe should be by both my guys and another group in the US, is chin hieght.
also, the varangian guardsman were mostly palace guards, a 4-5 foot axe was probably a boon, since it let the guard lean on it during the long hours of guarding the corridors
wikipedias not the best source, but based on information ive heard from other reenactors, it sounds like the article on the daneaxe was written by a reenactor.
| Wikipedia wrote: | | Based on period depictions, the haft of a Longaxe for combat was usually between approx. 0.9 m and 1.2 m (3 and 4 feet) long, although Dane axes used as status symbols might be as long as 1.5 to 1.7 m (5 to 5½ ft). Such axes might also feature inlaid silver and frequently may not have the flared steel edge of a weapon designed for war. Some surviving examples also feature a brass haft cap, often richly decorated, which presumably served to keep the head of the weapon secure on the haft, as well as protecting the end of the haft from the rigors of battle. Ash and oak are the most likely materials for the haft, as they have always been the primary materials used for polearms in Europe. |
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Daneaxe swings do not need to be wide and hard, though it is a common misconseption that the weapon would "really" be used that way; Such a fighting style is inviting a spear in the eye.
The broad head and long cutting edge of the broadaxe is made for cutting soft tisssue. Something that it does with great efficiency. Using the hips and body movement to gain momentum, you can deliver a extremely powerfull blow with only short distance of travel, and the opponents of the era where largely unarmoured.
As for the hook-thrust, it rarely works, as you are usually figthing at your maximum reach anyhow, and the opponent can easily dodge or deflect the thrust with the shield edge.
At about 0:59 in this video, you can see me loosing agains Toke from Hamaborg, by missing my first blow and failing to place the axe back between him and me before he swipes my hand...
(the rest of the videos are from either Neustad-Glewe in Germany(heavy armour and headshots), or Moesgaard in denmark (Light armour and/or piles of spears)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsPnFRcaxpU&am...re=mh_lolz
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Didn't you hit him in the head in a blow before the blow he blocked and then slashed your hand?
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 9:33 am Post subject: |
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He wrote hundreds of years later, but Sir John Smythe provides the only example of historical instruction on how to use axe-type polearms in battle I can think of. He counseled blow at the head and thrust at the face. Lighter Danish axes may have been used more like longswords against unarmored foes, but the purpose of halberds and kin appears to have been to deliver strokes mighty enough to incapacitate through a helmet. Smythe also emphasized that halberdiers should be strong and enthusiastic.
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | Didn't you hit him in the head in a blow before the blow he blocked and then slashed your hand? |
No, I simply missed: If you look closely, you can see that the axe passes to the side of the head. But it was definitely the plan, and as you can see his initial block was 10 cm to low.
Can't win 'em all.
My axe is 2m, and as you can see, he needs a single step to pass the head. Against a shorter axe he could simply sidestep and do the same.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | | Stephen Curtin wrote: | Hey guys, if I might be allowed to stray off topic for a moment just to address a point raised earlier.
Sean, regarding the three differently attired men in the picture from John Derricke's Image of Irelande, another possibility that I've read is that the person without shoes or trousers represents a young attendant (notice his lack of facial hair), and not a peasant (also a peasant wouldn't waste money on the clothing material for the wide hanging sleeves seen on this figure).
A common misconception seems to be that kerns were peasant farmer types who fought on occasion on their chiefs bidding. The truth is that, like the gallowglass, they were professional mercenaries, whos upkeep was paid for, by a lord and his tenants, and when said lord could not afford to pay them anymore they would move on to look for employment elsewhere. Peasants were sometimes used in warfare in Ireland, especially from the late 16th century on, but most of the fighting was done by the pros. |
Great info! Thanks, Stephen! |
You'r very welcome Sean, glad I was finally able to contribute something of interest to someone with your knowledge of history.
Éirinn go Brách
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Curtin wrote: | | Sean Flynt wrote: | | Stephen Curtin wrote: | Hey guys, if I might be allowed to stray off topic for a moment just to address a point raised earlier.
Sean, regarding the three differently attired men in the picture from John Derricke's Image of Irelande, another possibility that I've read is that the person without shoes or trousers represents a young attendant (notice his lack of facial hair), and not a peasant (also a peasant wouldn't waste money on the clothing material for the wide hanging sleeves seen on this figure).
A common misconception seems to be that kerns were peasant farmer types who fought on occasion on their chiefs bidding. The truth is that, like the gallowglass, they were professional mercenaries, whos upkeep was paid for, by a lord and his tenants, and when said lord could not afford to pay them anymore they would move on to look for employment elsewhere. Peasants were sometimes used in warfare in Ireland, especially from the late 16th century on, but most of the fighting was done by the pros. |
Great info! Thanks, Stephen! |
You'r very welcome Sean, glad I was finally able to contribute something of interest to someone with your knowledge of history. |
Of course, we also have to consider that the person holding the horse in that image might be loveable 60s "That Girl" Marlo Thomas.
 Attachment: 43.05 KB
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Wed 16 Nov, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Another 'dane' axe from Poland:
http://znaleziska.org/wiki/index.php/Topór_z_Psar
Unfortunately pretty much 0 info, there are like 20 villages named "Psary" in Poland. 
Maybe will find something more later.
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