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Which design would you choose?
1. design, big double fullered type X with gaddhjalt fittings
38%
 38%  [ 23 ]
2. design, very long and slender crusader themed type XI with disc or type B brazil nut pommel
41%
 41%  [ 25 ]
3. design, performance oriented gaddhajlt hilted type Xa
20%
 20%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 60

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep, 2011 11:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Luka Borscak wrote:
If go back to the spathas, they were first used as a cavalry weapons... Wink But however was the evolution of a X going on, by 11th century it would probably be mostly used by knights, usually mounted.

Btw, this brings up a question. What IS a minimal blade length practical for a mounted use? Average viking age type X sword has a 31" blade, and average Xa that would probably be used in a more knightly, mounted way was on average about 33". Are these 2 inches a deference great enough to differentiate between an infantry and cavalry blade?



I find that anything over 31" becomes more and more awkward in a cluttered environment - there's just not enough space to swing (reenactors might chime in here). On the other hand, on top of a horse, reach is obviously an advantage - but only up to a point. I don't own (and can't recall seeing) a single-hand sword with a blade longer than 38". At some point that length is going to become awkward - its just too much to support biomechanically.


For a one hander I tend to like the 32" to 34" in blade length: Good reach but still reasonably compact.

I do have one 40" blade one hander that I like a lot but in a tight spot I would be tempted to drop it and go for a long dagger and a mace backup weapon. Although this sword would be great for half swording in armour and as a cavalry sword.

This sword by Del Tin:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...on+Randeck

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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep, 2011 3:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok, so the design number 2 loses cross on the pommel and on the blade there should be cross on either side of an inscription. I believe INOMINEDOMINI inscriptions have crosses on their sides, do they? I might go with that if I go with the design 2. I must say that the first design with double fullers was my favorite in the beginning, but XI is growing on me (after all, both designs are mine and I would be happy with any of them. Wink ).

Btw, Jeremy, do you have any example of a flat bottomed fuller? Sounds interesting.
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep, 2011 8:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
I'd say I agree about the lack of crosses on pommels pre- 13th. c. I've never seen a cross of any kind on a type A or B pommel period.


You are right, but there are brazil nut pommels with heraldic designs.

Since the cross is also a heraldic design, it could be appropriate. Decorated pommels are rare anyway, so if one particular design (e.g. a cross) has not been preserved, it does not mean it didn't exist.

But you are right, a plain pommel is probably safer.

And I think that one has to choose between decorating the blade or the pommel, not both. Of the two, I'd choose the blade, but that's more difficult and therefore probably more expensive and rules out several makers.
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Ok, so the design number 2 loses cross on the pommel and on the blade there should be cross on either side of an inscription. I believe INOMINEDOMINI inscriptions have crosses on their sides, do they? I might go with that if I go with the design 2. I must say that the first design with double fullers was my favorite in the beginning, but XI is growing on me (after all, both designs are mine and I would be happy with any of them. Wink ).

Btw, Jeremy, do you have any example of a flat bottomed fuller? Sounds interesting.


I know that the famously well preserved sword on which the Albion Oakeshott is based has a flat fuller. I am sure there are others but those more knowledgable than I might be able to answer better.

I have a sword by Barta inspired by one of the +GICELINMEFECIT+ +INNOMINEDOMINI+ example in Records (XI 5.). The problem with this choice would be that the INOMEDOMINI swords I know of are a group of 8 and are all iron inlayed, not silver or brass. Plus such an inlay even with non-feric inlay would be expensive due to the length.

Also keep in mind that a silver inlay wouldn't really be much more expensive than a brass inlay at all since the amount of silver is pretty tiny.

Maybe a simpler and short inlay such as + III + on one side and III + III on the other would be nice in (silver or brass not sure). Other examples using this shorter grouping of designs using crosses use a strage kind of "3" symbol which isn't a 3 or "O's".

I apologize for being terrible with posting pictures. I would be more helpful if I could.

Robert Moc has done atleast one very nice type XI which Tim Lison, a forumite, owns which is pretty simiar to the design you are presenting here. This sword can be seen on Moc's website.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Sep, 2011 8:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Ok, so the design number 2 loses cross on the pommel and on the blade there should be cross on either side of an inscription. I believe INOMINEDOMINI inscriptions have crosses on their sides, do they? I might go with that if I go with the design 2. I must say that the first design with double fullers was my favorite in the beginning, but XI is growing on me (after all, both designs are mine and I would be happy with any of them. Wink ).

Btw, Jeremy, do you have any example of a flat bottomed fuller? Sounds interesting.


Well for a flat fuller or one with more complex geometry than what one gets using a fixed diameter wheel on a belt grinder, a forged blade gives a lot more potential for interesting fullers.

My Michael Pikula Cinquedea has a prominent mid rib, almost a triangle with very wide and flat fullers and reinforced edges.

Although flat the transitions to ridge in the middle of the blade and to the edges are small diameter curves.

After the general shape of the blade bevels and fuller are forged in, the clean up can be done using a variety of diameter wheels at different points and blending them in, but it would be impossible to do this with an 8" or 12" diameter wheel all by itself. ( Note: I don't really know what the standard diameters, and just using the numbers as examples ).

A CNC milling machine with the right shape cutting tool could also give you a flat fuller, maybe ? ( Or a complex series of passes with different tool profiles ? )

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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 2:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean, I really have no idea yet what my smith could or could not achieve, I still have to choose the design and present it to him. Btw, your collection is impressive and we would all be very grateful if you would start using a camera. Wink The Cinquedea just reminded me of that. Wink

Jeremy, I have seen your Barta Gicelin and Tim's Moc, they are both outstanding swords, Tim's Moc is pretty close to the picture of a perfect XI I have in my mind.

This simple inscriptions from Oakeshott's "The Sword in the Age of Chivalry" might work well for the XI design I think:



Somehow you managed to turn the second design into my favorite, rather than first one. Happy
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 5:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I do have one 40" blade one hander that I like a lot but in a tight spot I would be tempted to drop it and go for a long dagger and a mace backup weapon. Although this sword would be great for half swording in armour and as a cavalry sword.

This sword by Del Tin:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...on+Randeck


I thought that was a much smaller sword - it's huge!

But now that I think of it, here at the Royal Ontario Museum we have a short-handled brazil-nut sword with a huge blade - maybe 40 inches:

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr244/Refl...010251.jpg

This must be near the limits. That would also be a good one to replicate - I don't think anyone has.
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Michel Pérusse




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 7:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I do have one 40" blade one hander that I like a lot but in a tight spot I would be tempted to drop it and go for a long dagger and a mace backup weapon. Although this sword would be great for half swording in armour and as a cavalry sword.

This sword by Del Tin:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...on+Randeck


I thought that was a much smaller sword - it's huge!

But now that I think of it, here at the Royal Ontario Museum we have a short-handled brazil-nut sword with a huge blade - maybe 40 inches:

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr244/Refl...010251.jpg

This must be near the limits. That would also be a good one to replicate - I don't think anyone has.


Hehe, that's my (not so good quality) pic! I love this one. For my part, I would go for something with similar characteristics, if not for a reproduction as close as possible to the original. I don't think anyone has made it either, which is kind of surprising...
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 7:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, my XI design is very similar to this. Very long narrow blade, brazil nut pommel... Just that my pommel would probably be B, not A. But either fits the design well. I can't see the fuller in this picture though...
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Jean, I really have no idea yet what my smith could or could not achieve, I still have to choose the design and present it to him. Btw, your collection is impressive and we would all be very grateful if you would start using a camera. Wink The Cinquedea just reminded me of that. Wink

Jeremy, I have seen your Barta Gicelin and Tim's Moc, they are both outstanding swords, Tim's Moc is pretty close to the picture of a perfect XI I have in my mind.

This simple inscriptions from Oakeshott's "The Sword in the Age of Chivalry" might work well for the XI design I think:



Somehow you managed to turn the second design into my favorite, rather than first one. Happy


That's a great find Luka,

I remember seeing that picture somewhere in one of my books, but that would be a fine choice for inlay IMO.

Now whether brass or silver. I can remember Pierce in Swords in the Viking Age recounts a sword with similar simple designs but I can't recall if he states silver or brass, or maybe iron. . . .

Oakeshott would have some infor I would guess. I just moved so all my books are still packed away.

Oh yes, and Tim Lison's sword from Moc is really something! It's also surprisingly light for it's size which I thhink must make it really interesting (read awesome) to handle.
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 8:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michel Pérusse wrote:
J.D. Crawford wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I do have one 40" blade one hander that I like a lot but in a tight spot I would be tempted to drop it and go for a long dagger and a mace backup weapon. Although this sword would be great for half swording in armour and as a cavalry sword.

This sword by Del Tin:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...on+Randeck


I thought that was a much smaller sword - it's huge!

But now that I think of it, here at the Royal Ontario Museum we have a short-handled brazil-nut sword with a huge blade - maybe 40 inches:

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr244/Refl...010251.jpg

This must be near the limits. That would also be a good one to replicate - I don't think anyone has.


Hehe, that's my (not so good quality) pic! I love this one. For my part, I would go for something with similar characteristics, if not for a reproduction as close as possible to the original. I don't think anyone has made it either, which is kind of surprising...


And the sword to the right is attractive as well in an "odd duck" sort of way. Michael do you remember if the pommel on that one is elongated as we typically see. It almost looks more circular if looking from above, but that would be strange.
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Michel Pérusse




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
Michel Pérusse wrote:
J.D. Crawford wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I do have one 40" blade one hander that I like a lot but in a tight spot I would be tempted to drop it and go for a long dagger and a mace backup weapon. Although this sword would be great for half swording in armour and as a cavalry sword.

This sword by Del Tin:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...on+Randeck


I thought that was a much smaller sword - it's huge!

But now that I think of it, here at the Royal Ontario Museum we have a short-handled brazil-nut sword with a huge blade - maybe 40 inches:

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr244/Refl...010251.jpg

This must be near the limits. That would also be a good one to replicate - I don't think anyone has.


Hehe, that's my (not so good quality) pic! I love this one. For my part, I would go for something with similar characteristics, if not for a reproduction as close as possible to the original. I don't think anyone has made it either, which is kind of surprising...


And the sword to the right is attractive as well in an "odd duck" sort of way. Michael do you remember if the pommel on that one is elongated as we typically see. It almost looks more circular if looking from above, but that would be strange.

I don't remember for sure, but I would say more elongated than circular. I think I remember Oakeshott said something about this sword and it's pommel in one of his books (The Sword in the Age of Chivalry?)? I'll try and find the passage for you.

About the one with a brazil-nut pommel suggested to Luka: for proportions, note that the one (with a kind of Type N variant pommel?) on the right of it is a hand-and-a-half! I was fascinated by this sword (the one with a brazil-nut), it is a very long sword but -to my eye- very well proportioned, nimble and graceful looking. Where would this blade fit better in the Oakeshott typology? XI? It is very long, the fuller seems wide (or is it, hard to say from my poor pic), it tapers to quite an acute point...There are better pics of these swords from the ROM around on the forum.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 12:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry Michel, didn't mean to hijack your photo, it was just the first one to show up on a google image search. Yes, there are more photos around here somewhere. From what I recall from many personal viewings, that sword has a poorly defined wide fuller (at least in its present condition). So it has characteristics of both X (in fuller) and XI or Xa (in blade profile).

From what I recall, the pommel on the right is quite flat on top and oval in cross-section, nearly round. Marko Aleksić, in his article on type N swords, separates this type from the type with the wider flatter pommel.

I agree that the brazil nut sword would be a good choice for Luka.

I'm not sure why I keep commissioning replicas of swords in European museums instead of ones in my own city - familiarity I suppose. I've been going to this museum for about 40 years.
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Sorry Michel, didn't mean to hijack your photo, it was just the first one to show up on a google image search. Yes, there are more photos around here somewhere.


Here is a quick and dirty collage of some pictures that I took in 2007 that show the pommel from a few angles.
Interesting shape for sure.



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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are two more photos of these swords from someone here on this forum or on SBG, I'm not sure. And about that ROM brazil nut, it might be better classified with Geibig type 5 than Oakeshott X or XI...


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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
Luka Borscak wrote:
Jean, I really have no idea yet what my smith could or could not achieve, I still have to choose the design and present it to him. Btw, your collection is impressive and we would all be very grateful if you would start using a camera. Wink The Cinquedea just reminded me of that. Wink

Jeremy, I have seen your Barta Gicelin and Tim's Moc, they are both outstanding swords, Tim's Moc is pretty close to the picture of a perfect XI I have in my mind.

This simple inscriptions from Oakeshott's "The Sword in the Age of Chivalry" might work well for the XI design I think:



Somehow you managed to turn the second design into my favorite, rather than first one. Happy


That's a great find Luka,

I remember seeing that picture somewhere in one of my books, but that would be a fine choice for inlay IMO.

Now whether brass or silver. I can remember Pierce in Swords in the Viking Age recounts a sword with similar simple designs but I can't recall if he states silver or brass, or maybe iron. . . .

Oakeshott would have some infor I would guess. I just moved so all my books are still packed away.

Oh yes, and Tim Lison's sword from Moc is really something! It's also surprisingly light for it's size which I thhink must make it really interesting (read awesome) to handle.


In Swords of the Viking Age there two XI swords, one with iron, one with possible silver inscription. Oakeshott in Records mentions iron, silver, latten and gold inscriptions on XI swords.
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Michel Pérusse




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Sorry Michel, didn't mean to hijack your photo, it was just the first one to show up on a google image search.


By no means, don't be! No problem, in fact I'm quite happy it was of some use. Just wish I could have taken better pics when I went there...I wish I could go as often as you...(and, well, for my part, I will have it made eventually!)

And you, Luka, what do you think of the ROM sword suggestion? Does it fit in some way with what you are looking for? Looking forward seeing what you will go for and, hopefully, progress pics!
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
J.D. Crawford wrote:
Sorry Michel, didn't mean to hijack your photo, it was just the first one to show up on a google image search. Yes, there are more photos around here somewhere.


Here is a quick and dirty collage of some pictures that I took in 2007 that show the pommel from a few angles.
Interesting shape for sure.


Yes, an odd shape for sure. Maybe one of us more adventurous forumites will go for a reproduction! Seems like it would get in the way of the wrist in a swing but I guess the smith knew what he was doing right? OK sorry for hijacking!!
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 3:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michel Pérusse wrote:
J.D. Crawford wrote:
Sorry Michel, didn't mean to hijack your photo, it was just the first one to show up on a google image search.


By no means, don't be! No problem, in fact I'm quite happy it was of some use. Just wish I could have taken better pics when I went there...I wish I could go as often as you...(and, well, for my part, I will have it made eventually!)

And you, Luka, what do you think of the ROM sword suggestion? Does it fit in some way with what you are looking for? Looking forward seeing what you will go for and, hopefully, progress pics!


Some of its features like the shape and length of the blade are perfect and the blade will be an inspiration for my blade surely if I really end up with an XI design. Cross is also typical and is what I planned anyway, only thing I would change in my design would be the pommel, I want a pommel similar to St. Maurice of Vienna sword or that very early dated Glasgow museum XI sword with Anglo Saxon runes on it. And maybe a more narrow fuller, but that is less important. The fuller may start wider and than taper, that looks good and is accurate for XI blades. And if I'll have the money for inscription, than it will be a simple silver of brass inlayed inscription.
I just realized that with changes I just wrote, the sword will actually end up looking very similar to St. Maurice or Glasgow sword. Or even the Copenhagen one that Mr. Lison has from Robert Moc. I guess it will have features of all these swords than since they are all very similar. But dimensions will definitely be from the Ontario one, it's impressive.
Here they are all just for the fun and comparison:

ROM:



Copenhagen:



Glasgow:



Vienna:

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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 4:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do you guys think it would be a good idea to make a XI blade by slightly reworking this Del Tin 2142 blade? I think the profile taper is good, my smith would just add more distal taper, modify geometry a bit (round the hexagonal part at the tip, slightly narrow the blade and make an apple seed edge, give a bit more acuteness to the tip) and maybe lengthen the fuller a bit. If he would be making a sword from a scratch he would grind already hardened material to a shape so I think it might be easier to make this changes to this 2142 blade, what do you think? And than after all, he would make fittings and shorten the tang to single handed length.

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