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Michele Hansen




Location: Seattle, WA USA
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Surcotes vs. Fashion vs. Under-Armor         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
Michele Hansen wrote:
The blood and gore shown in battle illustrations in our favorite reference book, The Maciejowski Bible, indicates that despite maille's utility, a man could still be literally cut in half or beheaded. Perhaps that was because the illustrator used artistic license to demonstrate the superiority of the Jewish army. (I'm notorious for using artistic license in my own work.)


Not to be dragging the thread off-topic, but any discussion of the Maciejowski Bible needs to based on the fact that it is a BIBLE, and the illustrations are simply depictions of Biblical stories with the characters dressed and equipped in a 13th century fashion. The battle damage shown can NOT be used as evidence of reality, since in most cases the Biblical text merely says "So-and-so slew so-and-so", with absolutely no reference to armor, weapons, wound location, etc. Lovely pictures, but don't read too much into them!

This fellow with his spiffy stiff-shouldered surcoat gets dragged into a number of discussions like this, but to me it has always just looked like a surcoat! Sure, it could be lined and the fabric is clearly stiff enough to hold its shape like that. Two layers of heavy linen will do that. But if it were meant to be *protective* in any way, it would NOT stick out at the shoulders like that because he wouldn't be able to raise his arms. Rigid or semi-rigid body armor is always very narrow at the shoulders, to allow free movement.


Me: Felt and heavy linen are flexible, and would not impair range of motion. Wings aside, as we are discussing over-armor for 13th C knights, discussing what may have been sewn between those upper surcoat layers is still on topic.

As discissed above, my reference book also shows that armor harness under the surcoat went only from beneath the nipple line to the waist. Full range of motion was of prime importance.

And I agree: Breast plates have very narrow shoulder harnesses, not visible at the shoulder of a surcote, but buckles would be visible at the sides because the arm holes of surcotes were cut very deep.

I will refrain from any further reference to the Macs Bible after this one response. I agree with you. The artist most certainly used artistic license in those Bible stories. He wanted to convery the supremacy of Judean armies over their enemies.

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!


Last edited by Michele Hansen on Thu 12 Jan, 2012 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A surcote wich does not have tailored shoulders will stand up in that fashion all by itself, a tendency that might have been exagregated by the artist, or have become a fashion in some regions.

It is also posible that the garment has a cloth armour backing, combining the surcote and sleeveless cloth armour worn on top of the hauberk.
That it should be a until now unknown form of leather armour does not seem to be the most natural explanation to me, in any case.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The stiffened shoulders on surcoats seem to be a popular trend in French and English art beginning in the mid-1230s, and continued to be fashionable until the 1250s. These shoulders are rarely seen in German art, except in some rare illustrations coming from the period after they disappeared in the west. This appears to be the result of a stiffening process involving particular tailoring, obviously, and possibly the additional of layers of material or starching. It doesn't appear to have any protective qualities.

As for rigid body defenses, reinforced surcoats, as they're most commonly referred, began to appear by the middle of the 13th century. Here's a sculpture of St. Maurice poised in the Cathedral in Magdeburg, Germany, dated c. 1250. The sculpture clearly details the lines of rivets and the secondary layer of material behind. It is impossible to tell whether the form is suggestive of iron or cuir reinforcement.

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/28323/hl._moritz_magdeburg.jpg

A German chronicle from the 1260s describes the Battle of Benevento mentions plate armor of some sort being used (I haven't seen an original document, and the secondary source is hazy on details) by German mercenaries employed by Manfred of Sicily. Supposedly it was effective enough that it was noted the French began aiming for the unprotected armpits of the German men-at-arms, inflicting casualties in that way.

By the 1290s in Italy cuir boulli armor was definitely coming into its own. One of the most detailed sculptures showing this is the effigy of Guglielmo Berardi da Narbona, dated to 1289. It clearly shows him with a decorated breastplate and leg armor that can only reasonably be interpreted as cuir bouilli, considering the decoration and its up and coming status in surviving art across Italy.

http://images.alinari.it/img/480/cal/cal-f-011897-0000.jpg

A much earlier chronicle mentions Richard Cœur de Lion jousting with an iron breastplate beneath his hauberk. This would have to be c. 1190...

Can't think of much else off the top of my head, and my library is not at hand. It seems very reasonable to suggest that by the 1260s German men-at-arms were beginning to use plate armor, probably in segmented forms riveted to heavy surcoats, such as the depiction of St. Maurice suggests. By the end of the century English effigies, in particular, seem to make this trend notable, although German effigial art typically seems to depict rather archaic visages of men-at-arms in full mail and flowery surcoats - probably not corresponding with modern defenses at the turn of the 14th century. German effigies appear rather unreliable and artsy to take at face value, in my opinion.

Hope this helps a bit. Cheers!

-Gregory
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:


By the 1290s in Italy cuir boulli armor was definitely coming into its own. One of the most detailed sculptures showing this is the effigy of Guglielmo Berardi da Narbona, dated to 1289. It clearly shows him with a decorated breastplate and leg armor that can only reasonably be interpreted as cuir bouilli, considering the decoration and its up and coming status in surviving art across Italy.

http://images.alinari.it/img/480/cal/cal-f-011897-0000.jpg


Sure that is not a embroidered surcote, and islamic style engraved greaves?
Sure, Cuir boulli was used as decorative armour, but I would belive the plates that they are decorative standins for would predate them?

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Michele Hansen




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
Gregory J. Liebau wrote:


By the 1290s in Italy cuir boulli armor was definitely coming into its own. One of the most detailed sculptures showing this is the effigy of Guglielmo Berardi da Narbona, dated to 1289. It clearly shows him with a decorated breastplate and leg armor that can only reasonably be interpreted as cuir bouilli, considering the decoration and its up and coming status in surviving art across Italy.

http://images.alinari.it/img/480/cal/cal-f-011897-0000.jpg


Sure that is not a embroidered surcote, and islamic style engraved greaves?
Sure, Cuir boulli was used as decorative armour, but I would belive the plates that they are decorative standins for would predate them?


This is likely a silly question, but from what I have read, in the 1290s, weren't metal-plate arm, and leg armor already coming into use?

And Mr. Liebau: It is no surprise that winged shoulders in surcotes were pretty much limited to France and England. They had different cultures, and political systems, from those countries that were part of The Holy Roman Empire. French and English knights were dandies, by comparison. LOL! Seriously. And I am French and English so nobody say I'm biased.

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 9:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To my mind, looking at the manuscripts, the shoulders remind me of when I was just learning to draw perspective, I would draw the arms inside the torso with a line at the top indicating a particular angle or that what they were wearing was thicker then their actual body.
Just a thought.

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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 9:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I thought that before the 100-years war, english knight WHERE french knights :P

The germans are dandies as well, but in a different fashion. They have a perchant for knee length surcotes with wide sleeves, amongst other things.
This trend continues all the way up to the "Wafferoc" of 15th c Landsknecht officers, so it is probably not pure artistic fancy.
Trends differ from country to country, though.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jan, 2012 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
Sure that is not a embroidered surcote, and islamic style engraved greaves?
Sure, Cuir boulli was used as decorative armour, but I would belive the plates that they are decorative standins for would predate them?


There's no way to be certain about the surcoat issue, but what evidence is there of Islamic plate cuisses, poleyns and greaves in the late 13th century? I've never seen any armor comparable. Decorated cuir bouilli becomes a common aspect of Italian sculptural and effigial art beginning right around this period. There are also surviving illustrations that depict the color of the armor, suggesting it is decorated cuir.

Also, what evidence is there to suggest that cuir is a "stand in" for plate armor? They are two entirely different forms, and function in different ways, would certainly have cost different amounts and became popular in different regions. There is no evidence in Italy in the 13th century for the use of plate, almost anywhere, while there is almost no evidence for the use of cuir so early on almost anywhere else in Europe. What is suggestive of the cuir armor being a compensating form of defense?

-Gregory

Here's a fresco by Palazzo Pubblico in San Gimignano, dating to 1292. Both men-at-arms wear colored and highly decorated leg defenses.

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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Jan, 2012 7:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are a few more. In The Patent Rolls of Henry III we have an Iron Girdle mentioned amongst some military items, Ralph de Nesle;s inventory at his death in 1302 which gives a good idea how gents were equipped in the end of the 13th- tons of pairs of plates, and the Galley yard records in France has a number of early COP in them at this point.

RPM
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