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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
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PostPosted: Sun 31 Jul, 2011 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It might also be good to be careful about describing any of this as a flaw. Not very long ago every sword I looked at or that I bought that was not something custom from the likes of Peter Johnsson, Vince Evans or Kevin Cashen (alas I could only afford to look at those) had a slightly more or slightly less rough finish in this area; but nearly all production swords were rough at the junction of guard and blade. Albion was the first production maker that routinely had a clean and tight fit at the cross. Good or bad they changed market expectations for production swords and I think this is mainly an expectation issue (which does NOT mean its an invalid concern). So in fairness, this might not be what people now expect, but I'm not sure its good to call it a flaw. That is a much more loaded term and something that could cause Albion unintended injury.
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Last edited by Joe Fults on Sun 31 Jul, 2011 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paul B.G




Location: Victoria, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 31 Jul, 2011 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
It might also be good to be careful about describing any of this as a flaw. Not very long ago every sword I looked at or that I bought that was not something custom from the likes of Peter Johnsson, Vince Evans or Kevin Cashen (alas I could only afford to look at those) had a slightly more, or slightly less rough finish in this area; but nearly all production swords were rough at the junction of guard and blade. Albion was the first production maker that routinely had a clean and tight fit at the cross. Good or bad they changed market expectations for production swords and I think this is mainly an expectation issue (which does NOT mean its and invalid concern). So in fairness, this might not be what people now expect, but I'm not sure its good to call it a flaw. That is a much more loaded term and something that could cause Albion unintended injury.


Absolutely, this sword and its construction are rock solid, I wouldnt say flaw at all, just as said, a bit rough. Also its not something that you can see unless you go looking for it Eek! and I think you are right, it’s a case of expectations Wink

My next step now is to find a good instruction book for sword practice Worried

A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person

O====[::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and tho’
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

—Alfred Lord Tennyson, Ulysses
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
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PostPosted: Sun 31 Jul, 2011 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul B.G wrote:
My next step now is to find a good instruction book for sword practice Worried


Hey Paul, besides practice cutting, I would consider not using a sharp for practice, for safety reasons. There are times when practicing I know I would have hurt myself or damaged the blade had I been using a sharp. I am of course assuming your ordered your Crecy sharp that that is the sword you are intending on drilling with.

Here are some training weapons you could consider, if interested:

A&A Fechterspiel Sword
A&A Spada da Zogho
Albion Meyer
Albion Liechtenauer
As a budget option: Hanwei Practical Bastard Sword

As for books here are a few books(and dvd) you could consider
    Fighting with the German Longsword, by Christian Henry Tobler
    In Saint George's Name, by Christian Tobler
    Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art Of The Longsword, by David Lindholm, Peter Svard
    Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Arts Of Combat: Sword and Buckler Fighting, Wrestling, and Fighting in Armor, by David Lindholm, Peter Svard
    The Longsword of Johannes Liechtenauer Vol. 1 DVD, by Ochs


P.S. Also, I would consider using regular oil wiping rather than wax if you are planning on practice cutting with your Crecy.


Last edited by T. Arndt on Sun 31 Jul, 2011 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eric G.




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PostPosted: Sun 31 Jul, 2011 8:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Arndt wrote:
As for books here are a few books(and dvd) you could consider
    Fighting with the German Longsword, by Christian Henry Tobler
    In Saint George's Name, by Christian Tobler
    Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art Of The Longsword, by David Lindholm, Peter Svard
    Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Arts Of Combat: Sword and Buckler Fighting, Wrestling, and Fighting in Armor, by David Lindholm, Peter Svard
    The Longsword of Johannes Liechtenauer Vol. 1 DVD, by Ochs



Paul,

May I also add to the list of good books "Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship: Sigmund Ringeck's Commentaries on Liechtenauer" by Christian Henry Tobler.

I own it and I must say that it is excellent. It's the first book on my reading list on that link to the left.

Eric Gregersen
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Knowledge applied is power.
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F. Carl Holz




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Aug, 2011 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i considered getting one of these for a while but ended up going for the sempach instead, both beautiful swords.

those are all great books on the german school, but if your not specific to Liechtenauer you should consider Guy Windsor's "the swordsman's companion" too. its based out of the italian schools and is an excellent read even if you are going to focus on another system.

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Paul B.G




Location: Victoria, Australia
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug, 2011 4:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys, as always very helpful advice.

I was looking into guy windsor's book the swordsman's companion as ive seen some good reports about it. But have to put it aside for a month or so as the Scabbard has started and i have to pay for that Wink

Next of the list with be one of these

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...K:MEWAX:IT

Happy

Thanks again - Paul

A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person

O====[::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and tho’
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

—Alfred Lord Tennyson, Ulysses
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William Frisbee




Location: South Shore, MA
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Aug, 2011 9:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul, I've been using the Hanwei Practical Bastard Sword as my primary trainer since I started taking WMA classes.

Its a fine blade. Longer than most, a little heavier than most, but it really helps me to build up those arm and wrist muscles that you typically don't use.

Mine still doesn't rattle after all that use (two or three classes a week for the past 19 months).
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Aug, 2011 5:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul B.G wrote:
Just a quick question guys, you will notice in my 6th photo looking down the blade at the hilt that it has a pretty rough finish in the insert, is this normal or am I expecting a bit to much? Wink apart from this minor rough finish the sword is pretty much floorless.


Hi Paul,

I have to admit I am a bit shocked. I've seen a fair amount of Albion swords over the years, and I too own a A crecy. I have never seen such sloppy work on one of their guards..These are cast and should fit right away with minimal hand cleaning (entry level swords have come around that now, such as hanwei tinkers that are150$ worth and have perfect guard insert, from cast components too). I have also seen better guards end up in the moat sale...I would not be happy about it, at all, as Albion initial promise is to deliver the best production swords that can be made, and that's what you paid for.

I would overlook the pitting if it can be cleaned fairly easily.

Cheers,

Julien
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Paul B.G




Location: Victoria, Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2011 3:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
Paul B.G wrote:
Just a quick question guys, you will notice in my 6th photo looking down the blade at the hilt that it has a pretty rough finish in the insert, is this normal or am I expecting a bit to much? Wink apart from this minor rough finish the sword is pretty much floorless.


Hi Paul,

I have to admit I am a bit shocked. I've seen a fair amount of Albion swords over the years, and I too own a A crecy. I have never seen such sloppy work on one of their guards..These are cast and should fit right away with minimal hand cleaning (entry level swords have come around that now, such as hanwei tinkers that are150$ worth and have perfect guard insert, from cast components too). I have also seen better guards end up in the moat sale...I would not be happy about it, at all, as Albion initial promise is to deliver the best production swords that can be made, and that's what you paid for.

I would overlook the pitting if it can be cleaned fairly easily.

Cheers,

Julien


Hi thanks Julien,

To be honest I was / am I bit disappointed with the rough finish of the hilt but I don’t have the experience to know what the expectation should be. Eric Gregersen also commented that he got his crecy a bit before me and his has the same rough finish. Before Eric’s comment I was going to write to albion but then thought I was expecting to much.

Its also not a angle that I have seen many photos of, I guess I should wait for a few more opinions.

Thanks Paul

A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person

O====[::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and tho’
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

—Alfred Lord Tennyson, Ulysses
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2011 3:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul B.G wrote:
Before Eric’s comment I was going to write to albion but then thought I was expecting to much.


You are definitely not expecting too much at this price point. Again I have held close to 30 next gen's over the years, not one had such defects. This might be a faulty cast hilt batch, but in any case this should not have been overlooked in my opinion.

Best.

Julien

ps: I'll post a pict of my own crecy guard slot soon (got it 3 years ago or so)
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2011 9:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
Paul B.G wrote:
Before Eric’s comment I was going to write to albion but then thought I was expecting to much.


You are definitely not expecting too much at this price point. Again I have held close to 30 next gen's over the years, not one had such defects. This might be a faulty cast hilt batch, but in any case this should not have been overlooked in my opinion.

Best.

Julien

ps: I'll post a pict of my own crecy guard slot soon (got it 3 years ago or so)


I agree that it's an issue but shipping back and forth from Australia must be costly and waiting for it to come back and through Customs again would really be a pain ! Even being on the same continent I really hate the idea of sending stuff back across borders to get something fixed unless it's truly a serious problem.

Apart from the principle of the thing it does seem to be not too bad, but not optimum.

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Graham Baynes




Location: Australia
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2011 3:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi everyone.

Paul, Jean brought up about the cost of shipping back and forth from Aus so I thought I would just let you know that I recently ordered my first sword from Albion. I ordered from them directly due to the strong Aussie dollar and assurances from customs that it is not yet illegal to import a sword (it hasn't arrived yet so I guess I'll soon see how kind customs are). I ordered the Yeoman and the shipping cost to me was US$190 so it would get very expensive very quickly if you had to pay to send it back to Albion and then again for them to ship it back to you.
Since you ordered from Ronin Swords, perhaps you could talk to them and see what they have to say regarding a return if returning the sword is an avenue you are thinking about persuing.

All the best,
Graham.
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2011 8:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Whatever is going to happen, or is not going to happen for that matter, its all going to start with contacting Albion. Not sure why people find it so hard to go back to the manufacturer/retailer for sword issues. We all have to do it for electronics, cars, clothes, and even food from time to time in our daily lives. However, it really seems like its hard for people to bring sword concerns back to the source.

Don't leave it to wondering and waiting on other people's advice.

Just call or email them and explain your concern. Refer them to this thread and photos if you need to. At least as long as it stays civil and professional. The moment this thread becomes a bashing session, and most of the threads about problems eventually seem to become bashing sessions, its going inject emotion and make it harder for you to find any satisfaction. Cool

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Paul B.G




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2011 9:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
Whatever is going to happen, or is not going to happen for that matter, its all going to start with contacting Albion. Not sure why people find it so hard to go back to the manufacturer/retailer for sword issues. We all have to do it for electronics, cars, clothes, and even food from time to time in our daily lives. However, it really seems like its hard for people to bring sword concerns back to the source.

Don't leave it to wondering and waiting on other people's advice.

Just call or email them and explain your concern. Refer them to this thread and photos if you need to. At least as long as it stays civil and professional. The moment this thread becomes a bashing session, and most of the threads about problems eventually seem to become bashing sessions, its going inject emotion and make it harder for you to find any satisfaction. Cool


Sorry I should have gotten back to this thread and posted that I have since sent a message to Albion. Just thought it best to leave this thread be so as to not perpetuate the speculation.
Thanks - Paul

A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person

O====[::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and tho’
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

—Alfred Lord Tennyson, Ulysses
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 12:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Since you're gathering opinions here, I'll add my own:

I think your sword looks fine.

You'll probably want to avoid ever collecting antique weapons of any kind. Happy

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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 5:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
Not sure why people find it so hard to go back to the manufacturer/retailer for sword issues. We all have to do it for electronics, cars, clothes, and even food from time to time in our daily lives. However, it really seems like its hard for people to bring sword concerns back to the source.

Don't leave it to wondering and waiting on other people's advice.


I think the reason why is simple. When dealing with large manufacturer's and retailers, you don't have to address an individual hard-working artist / craftsman if your blu-ray player doesn't work right. It's much more difficult to tell the man who just spent a LOT of time crafting an individual item for you that something may not seem right, or you just may not know what the protocol is in that case. It's a different relationship. That's why people tend to ask for third party advice before going that route.

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Since you're gathering opinions here, I'll add my own:

I think your sword looks fine.

You'll probably want to avoid ever collecting antique weapons of any kind. Happy


Well, it might be a little unfair to draw that comparison. There's clearly an expectation of imperfection when buying an antique. When buying a product made by a CNC milling machine using modern materials and manufacturing techniques, some folks have an expectation for the modern aesthetic (i.e., perfect symmetry and performance). I'm also not saying whether that expectation is right or wrong, but modern repro's and antiques, are almost apples and oranges now.

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Kirill R




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 7:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Since you're gathering opinions here, I'll add my own:

I think your sword looks fine.

You'll probably want to avoid ever collecting antique weapons of any kind. Happy.


I absolutely agree with you. With antiques, of course there will be imperfections. The attraction there is the connection to the old world for some and many other reasons for others I'm sure. However, when purchasing a top of the line reproduction sword with modern techniques, there is an expectation of perfection, at least for me. Given the fact that even my $110 tinker is almost perfect in form, would I have gotten a Crecy with that kind of rough work I would be most displeased. In fact, I recently ordered an Albion Crecy and will not accept that kind of workmanship if it so happens to befall my blade.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 7:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Since you're gathering opinions here, I'll add my own:

I think your sword looks fine.

You'll probably want to avoid ever collecting antique weapons of any kind. Happy


Paul, I would take Nathan's opinion as a positive and feel much better about your purchase and that the " flaw " is well within the norm if you where looking at a period sword with period aesthetics in comparison.

For obvious reasons I have a lot of respect for Nathan's opinion and wide experience with quality reproduction. Big Grin Cool

Note that Ian does also make valid points in his post explaining the nuances in value judgement as there are two basic aesthetic priorities/approches in contrast here and it depends on your personal preferences.

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirill R wrote:
However, when purchasing a top of the line reproduction sword with modern techniques, there is an expectation of perfection, at least for me.


Yeah. Some have that expectation. I don't. I'd find that so-called "perfection" to be imperfect and unattractive. Instead, I'm looking for something to capture the feel and character of the antiques that inspired it. Mileage varies.

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Kirill R




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 9:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Kirill R wrote:
However, when purchasing a top of the line reproduction sword with modern techniques, there is an expectation of perfection, at least for me.


Yeah. Some have that expectation. I don't. I'd find that so-called "perfection" to be imperfect and unattractive. Instead, I'm looking for something to capture the feel and character of the antiques that inspired it. Mileage varies.



Sure, I just don't think authenticity can be made up. The imperfections of antiques are real, attained at the time it's made or through the ages, either way they are real. On one hand one could say, false authenticity in modern blades may be a nice excuse for rough work. As you say, mileage varies.

Paul, should you hear back from Albion and decide to have it fixed up, I wish you luck and hope the matter will be resolved soon.
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