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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 6:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marco S wrote:
I still find that I would prefer a slightly heavier sword if I was going to use it against another swordsman.


Agreed. That is part of the reason I prefer the Han pattern, and also the heavier battlefield type Yanmaodao. These days I might even use a Jian against another swordsman. The mace, not the sword.

I just had to make an opening to talk about my new babies... I just had 2 of these Jian maces arrive about a week ago from China. They're old enough... Very end of the Qing... One solid piece of iron and very heavy. The very old (in his 90s) Chinese guy who sold them to me thought they were Bian, the dual maces, but surely they have to be too heavy for that. You would need bigger forearms than Popeye to be any type of quick with one in each hand. My girlfriend can hardly even pick both of them up at the same time, and she's a martial artist herself.

I wouldn't want to face someone who actually has more than one obscure form and a couple of weeks of practice wielding a Jian mace with a lightweight Jian sword. These maces are quite often pretty much especially designed to break swords, and I imagine do so quite well. Alas, I'll probably never find out what that's like, because I sure as hell am not about to try with one of my own swords, and I imagine volunteers will be scarce... Worried

To be honest, I wouldn't use a gun or a sword on a home invader, I'd just beat them up a bit and restrain them until the cops came. I might hit them with some furniture, but that's about it.

I suspect that if the Hanwei Ming Jian is not a Court Sword, it is likely to be a more wealthy Scholar's type. These are often lightweight and of smaller overall dimensions than the battlefield ones. And are fighting weapons.

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Last edited by Bennison N on Tue 26 Jul, 2011 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bob Burns




Location: South Indianapolis IN
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PostPosted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some really good points Marco, yes the Ming is a courtly or dress sword, however it's no wallhanger either. My wife's favorite sword is her Arms and Armor German Rapier with an extravagant custom clean finish to the hilt and blade along with the matching parrying dagger. I commissioned the rapier with Chris and Craig for one of her birthdays.WOW! Did they do a spectacular job!
After that, it's her Hanwei Ming Sword for another birthday and. She is pretty darn good with that Ming! As I said in an earlier post, I watched her cut 4 different gallon jugs, 3 to 5 times each jug, I mean she filleted those jugs with the Ming! It's definately not a "war combat version of the Jian". However, as a personal civillian dress sword, the Ming is functionally lethal. It has a very strong blade, I bought it for $700.00 it was retailed for 1,375.00and for some reason was discontinued because of being overlooked and did not. Sell well is what I was told. There is nothing remotely flimsy about it. Gayle has cut heavy cardboard with it but it's not meant to cut through tatami matt wrapped bamboo! However, it is fully functional but not as a "battle axe" LOL! Although it would indeed go through a human torso like warm butter in a split second, it's a counter speed attack sword and not meant to stop. Or block my Arms and Armor Highland Claymore or German Bastard Sword.
Due to it's extremely resiliant strong and stiff very high quality steel blade. Especially for how narrow the blade is, but it has raised central fuller ridges and an arrow type blade tip making this extremely light blade to be quite rugged for a dress sword! The Shaolin Wootz Sword is for it's small size and weight 1 lb. 10 oz a total "Beast"!
While the Ming is "Not" a ride off into battle sword, but for what it is meant to be as a "Coutly" sword it is tough as nails! I really liked your post Marco and you brought up some valid points that I am in total agreement with, however don't under estimate the Ming, for the price I paid it was a "Steel" (purposely spelled for some humor).
Thanks for your post Marco and Oh Yeah the Ming is lightening fast!
By the way, as someone who did martial arts for years and 6 ft 1 inch, I have sport fought some very tough guys your size! Smaller size, smaller target. Besides whether in martial arts, street combat, or in the virtues of manly character, size does not mean diddly squat! It's what's in your "Heart, Spirit and Mind" that counts and not a man's size!
Bob

It IS What It IS! Only In Truth, Can Reality Exist!
To "Learn" we must empty our minds and therefore open our mind and spirit. A wet sponge absorbs no water. A preconceived mind is recalcitrant to new knowledge!
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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bob Burns wrote:
It's what's in your "Heart, Spirit and Mind" that counts and not a man's size!


And with a 2lb, 32" bladed Jian, it's easy enough to make them the right size anyway, right? Big Grin

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 10:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It sure as hell IS, Bennison. In this case the Ming is a lady's sword and trust me, she would not hesitate! Five foot three inches tall and a 58 year old RN who is a bit shy and quiet, seemingly meek. She says that is her edge, because no one would suspect the barbarian gal that she Really and Truly is at heart! Gayle has been reading and studying one of the 3 new books I bought, "The Art of. Chinese Swordsmanship". Without diverting. From the topic, she's great with the Song Sword and other bigger European swords. The Hanwei Ming was a specific surprise birthday present and she's passionate about the Ming! As for myself the Shaolin. Wootz Sword was my Jian of choice. The Han Dynasty Sword is also a beauty! Another gorgeous Jian is the Hanwei. Shaolin Hun Yuan Sword, which was in consideration when I made my selection for the Shaolin Wootz Sword, the Hun Yuan is a two hand grip. OA length is 47 7/8" with a 35 3/4" blade @ 2 lbs 1 oz. Many different sizes, however the Hun Yuan would be about perfect to go agAinst a German Longsword in my opinion.

Some very interesting concepts shared by everyone in this topic!

Bob

It IS What It IS! Only In Truth, Can Reality Exist!
To "Learn" we must empty our minds and therefore open our mind and spirit. A wet sponge absorbs no water. A preconceived mind is recalcitrant to new knowledge!
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul, 2011 6:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

regarding the deadliest warrior episode i argue that while it indeed was quite a nasty sword.. that said.. he seemed to actually get stuck a few times and had to do a pull slice with it to gt it out. maybe a cut with the tip or two would showcase its REAL strength.

but at the same time i argue they used the wrong jian. simply due to the time period that sun tzu is alledged to have lived.
which was either the spring and autumn period or the warring states period.
at this time the jian was of a RADICALLY different design and a totally different beast.
an example is the sword of goujian which was made of bronzes of differing alloys such as high tin bronze for the edges . and is of a bade design known commonly as the han jian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Goujian

at the very least i would have given sun tzu a han jian like the ones made by jinshi (and in my mind feature prominently in the recent film red cliff which was of a dffferent era again i.e the 3 kingdoms period. but is alot closer in design to what sun tzu would actually have used


correct me if im wrong here but the design they used here (cold steel jian ) is one more of the ming dynasty onwards.

that said i understad the point you were trying to get across saying thats how you use the sword its just a gripe about that segment i would like to get off my chest,

and interestingly vlad seemed to have used a cold steel swiss halberd. whoes tip i understand is pretty different to historical examples.
and would vlad the impaler really have used plated maile considering hesusing a harquebus which indicates a period containing brigadine COP's and even full plate. and being a prince he would likely have had access to them.
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul, 2011 7:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi William, - am not seeking to argue anything, was just an opportunity for those interested to watch a documented Jian expert. The way that program is produced leaves a lot to be desired in how it is directed and produced. Like an Apache beating a Roman Gladiator or a Comanche beating a Mongol and so on. The show seems to be geared to an audience of guys in they're late teens or in there 20s. To 30s and politically slanted. Just my own opinion I did not see Master Yeng having a problem getting stuck. Rather to "Me" it seemed he was purposely stopping in order to give an unmistakabe opportunity for everyone to view the depth of the thrusted sword point and blade far beyond expectations. Kind of a hoaky program in many ways but an opportunity to see a true Jian expert perform!
It's on "On Demand", so I will watch it again to examine your point of view!
In any case I am as much a German Longsword or Bastard sword enthusiast as I am with the Jian!
It took me 2 years to select my first sword because it had to be me. Body, mind and soul in steel.
That sword was the Arms and Armor German Bastard Sword! And to this day the GBS is the most important sword in my collection! I also have all but the most recent book by Christian Henry Tobler. So there is no lack of my love for German Swordsmanship! I also have the dvd "The Longsword of Johannes Liechtenauer.
Plus though unrelated, while my dad served in the US. Army after college, I was conceived and born in Germany!
After. Watching Master Yeng. With the Jian a few times again just now, I saw No struggle in extracting the blade of the Jian whatsoever, not in the least! Master yeng extracted the blade each and every time with No effort and as per "Struggle"? Absolute zero struggle and I repeated this particular segment 4 times in a row.
I also just asked Gayle to watch the segment and she too saw no struggle.


Sincerely!

Bob

It IS What It IS! Only In Truth, Can Reality Exist!
To "Learn" we must empty our minds and therefore open our mind and spirit. A wet sponge absorbs no water. A preconceived mind is recalcitrant to new knowledge!
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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul, 2011 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

F. Carl Holz wrote:


so, anyone here have any experience with mixing chinese martial arts with european swords or german martial arts with chinese swords?


A little (european art with jian simulator): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br6z2enB0wU I'm the guy in yellow.

These simulators, while being of synthetic material, are within the lower weight tolerance for jian, and have a comparable POB. Not saying these are equivalent to the "real thing", but I'd bet they are closer than most people think, when they first hear "simulator".

for some background: I practice German longsword, a little of Silver's sword in one hand, some Filipino escrima, classical fencing and sport fencing (currently have an "A" rating in epee and have held top national rank in foil in my younger days).
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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul, 2011 3:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OK. I keep getting distracted by this thread...

So, without further ado, I present to you a step-by-step diagram of the Shaonian Jianshu form, for your direct comparison. (It is attached)

This is not a difficult form, but it does show some of the common Jianshu (romanised Chinese for "Sword Technique") techniques. Plus it's the only Jian form in picture form I have on my work computer, and the only one I can share without incurring the wrath of certain Chinese Martial Artists... Ones who really dislike sharing their stuff...

Please note that in all seriousness, the most important parts of this form are the footwork and the breathing (the character for "Qi" or "Chi" also means "Air", just to demonstrate the importance of correct breathing). And for those of you who have always wondered about why we use the two finger pointer in so many Chinese sword techniques... This is called the "second sword". It is mainly for the effective redirection of energy.

Consider what you know about Chinese Medicine. There are meridiens on the body which help (or hinder) the stable flow of power and energy around the body. The more scientific amongst us will know about the immense amount of electricity the human body is capable of generating. This moves about the body by the meridiens. In Chinese medicine, a type of Yang, or positive application is Healing Acupuncture, and a form of Yin, or negative application is the Dian Ma and Dian Xue, or the "Death Touch".

Much of Chinese Medicine was developed by Taoist "scientists" over the millennia... And the same is true of Chinese Swordsmanship. So it is really only natural that the two overlap. We've all heard about "Qi" or "Chi", and whether you believe in it or not, you practice Chinese Swordsmanship with the mindset that it DOES exist. The idea is essential to progressing in traditional styles.

I would comment on how it compares to German or European Swordsmanship, but I don't know anywhere near as much about that, so I'll let an expert on that make their own comparison.



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"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2011 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6gG4af-LzM&feature=related
i was referring to when he makes the cut and drag near the end of the session. he strikes with the portion below the tip meaning its effectivel a chop and clearly he cant get the sword all the way through. so he drags it back in a slice to pull it out. to me that said 'stuck when i first saw it but looking again and his posture that suggsts it was a defined technque to make that slice.
though personally i would have abandoned such chop like cuts and make a couple of the intial tip cuts he made after the first thrust since its a much faster was of cutting and making use of the narrow blade.
im not trying to sart an arguement either. it was just a gripe that ive had for awhile and wantedto get out there.
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Marco S





Joined: 24 Jul 2011

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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jul, 2011 8:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry I haven't kept up with the thread for a couple of days. Been kind of hectic...

Bob, I have to say, I would love to see to see your wife in action with that sword. If she wields it as well as you say she does, it would be a sight to behold... especailly with as gorgeous a jian as that one. I definitely wouldn't mind seeing your own skill as well. Of course, that would mean I'd have to show something myself. Heh, watch me disappoint everyone...

Edit: ok, I decided to add a link to a video where I review my Han jian which I bought from a company called Jin-Shi. I'm showing it here since at around the 7:46 to 9:28 mark in the video, I show up its cutting abilities as well as some basic jian movements. Go ahead and laugh at the poor form... it really needed refining. And yes, I know I butchered the name of the company I bought the jian from... and I really should have known better. Don't know what I was thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq_pex4uZLw


Bennison, great idea sharing that particular form. It may not be as fanciful as some other forms people like, but I find it does a god job of introducing key techniques that were used with the jian. Other forms I think are really good for someone to get a good idea of how the weapon can be wielded practically are the Kun Wu Jian form, and the San Kai Jian, although the Wudang form Dan Jian is one of my favorites simply because of the smoothness and bodywork required to perform it correctly. If I was able to, what I'd present for people to want to compare to western sword styles are the The Complete Jian Shu: Chinese Combat Sword for Sport by Jason Tsou and Arthur Schonfeld, and Sword Fundamental training by Dr Yang Jwing Ming. Both of these works are all about teaching perspective students in the basic techniques needed to have a good foundation in jian usage, and show them in clear and practical ways. They both take different approaches to this: the former focuses more on the sport of Jianshu that has been developing for a few years now (think a Chinese take on fencing), while the latter has a more traditional approach and sticks to a pure combat training focus. Also the former is more expensive, as it's a book and dvd combo deal, while the latter is just a dvd (but a damn good one). But either are very good introductions that I keep recommending to people, and since both focus on basic techniques and their applications rather than forms, it's a good resource for anyone wanting to use them to compare to other sword styles.

One thing I have to mention about the Chi/Qi angle is that I've noticed that in the end, it all boils down to proper body mechanics. So many of the so called "internal arts" have a lot of emphasis on proper stances and body movement to make the techniques work. So even if the student doesn't necessarily believe in the theories of Chinese internal medicine, they most likely will still be able to achieve good results, simply by making sure they stick to using good form and body mechanics.

... and ah... the Deadliest Warrior. Gods, how I hate that show. Every time I see even just a piece of it I find myself screaming at the screen. They get so much wrong, there are so many variables they never even touch on, and the methods they use to come up with their conclusions aren't anywhere near scientific, much less follow any type of real combat sense. Like the clip shown with Vlad vs Sun Tzu... the Vlad supporter with long hair actually tried to say that someone using his weapon would easily chop off the hand of someone else trying to stab them with a jian. Anyone who's spent even the shortest amount of time sparing with someone knows that thrusts/stabs tend to reach the targets quicker than cuts. If someone is just relying on being able to slash their way against someone using a thrusting weapon capable of withstanding the fight against them, they;'ll most likely find themselves skewered. This isn't to say someone with a cutting sword can't win; it all comes down to the actual fighter but still... to just come up with some simple minded reasoning saying that their weapon is better because they could cut the hand off of a thruster... really now. I also have to agree with you William: chopping cuts is not the best use of the jian anyway, even with its decent cutting abilities. It's better to use slicing like cuts, and then only to targets that wouldn't threaten to get the sword stuck, like say the neck, or the wrists.

Sorry about the rant... it's just that whenever The Deadliest Warrior is mentioned... gah....

By the way, before I forget I have to thank William for inviting me here. You guys seem like a cool bunch of people to talk this kind of stuff with. Happy
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2011 12:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Idea William, thank you for getting .arco in the myArmoury Forum. Yes Marco, "Deadliest Warrio" makes me want to pull what's left of my hair out! However, it's not the representatives of the cultures so much as it is the producers and directors. Though some of the performers do seem to be very much like what and how they are to portray. It's 85 percent the producers and directors idea of drama to kick up the insults and challenges for the audience out there! Instead of having an intellectual show with mutual respect. The "Big Shots" want it that way, every episode has the same format, challenges, insults, bits of respect and all the rest of the hype! No. Way on his own would Vaclav Havloc make such a stupid statement on his own with total disrespect to.Master Johnny Yang. "6 Time Wushu. Kung Fu Grand Champion! These guys are put up to all this by the "Powers That Be" and this is LSpike TV"! It's meant to be Outrageous!
Gayle really is that good at cutting jugs, it has nothing to do with strngth, it's concentration of mental focus, believing you can do it, speed, coordination, and grace. I taught Gayle how to cut jugs years ago and she learned easily. Her first cut was a gallon jug of water cut with my Arms and Armor English Longsword and she cut it clean in half with ease.
Watching me cut thise huge 25 lb water filled cat litter jugs clean in half, one aftrt the next with my Arms and Armor Three Ring Italian Rapier made a believer out of her. (There is a post in here with 3 pictures Gayle took of me doing this. I believe the thread was mainly amongst the very learned rapier fighters as to whether or not you could cut someone with an Italian Rapier.
Also, at a member's sword gathering party I did this same cut with a huge cat litter jug and rather surprised "Joe Fults". Plus I sent copies of the photos to Arms and Armor. It's not as hard as you think. It's technique! Oh .ark of Ollin Blades was there too. Joe and Mark are both a couple of very fine gentlemen and quite humble too!I had brought a whole lot of swords and Joe and Mark helped me unloaf and load without being asked!!!!
By the way, I scrutinized a few swords Mark made and wielded them. Mark was "BORN to Make Swords"! Is Mark really that talented? OH HELL YES HE IS!
Speaking of swords, back to Chinese and German!
Arms and Armor now make a Jian Sword now. But they are an European Sword company. My response? So What! I intend to buy a Jian from A and A!!!!
Sawordmakers, make swords from steel billets. "Swordsmiths" make swords from a clump of raw iron ore. Well, Christopher Poor and Craig Johnson are swordmakers AND "SwordSMITHS"!
Owner and GM of Arms and Armor.
LOL! I am In Trouble Now"!
Bob

It IS What It IS! Only In Truth, Can Reality Exist!
To "Learn" we must empty our minds and therefore open our mind and spirit. A wet sponge absorbs no water. A preconceived mind is recalcitrant to new knowledge!
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2011 1:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I ran out of room on my "medium".
There was a reason I brought up Arms and Armor, specifically Chris and Craig. That's because I am going to want a custom made pattern Welded Jian for Gayle and myself, especially Gayle! And I will want it to be damn good!!!!!
Plus the standard Jian they make is a battle type Jian!

Bob

It IS What It IS! Only In Truth, Can Reality Exist!
To "Learn" we must empty our minds and therefore open our mind and spirit. A wet sponge absorbs no water. A preconceived mind is recalcitrant to new knowledge!
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Marco S





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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2011 1:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bob: I'm definitely going to have to check out this company if there are that good. Not that I have a lot of money laying around to buy me a new piece, but there's nothing wrong with looking at some fine looking blades. Same with seeing such blades in action; I'm going to have to find those pics that you mentioned. I hope the video I provided was enertaining enough.

One thing I wanted to ask, since my knowledge of German swordsmanship is very limited. A main tactic used with the jian is to have the opponent's blade slide off of yours as you move in to counter and strike. You rarely ever go with a hard block, or intercept their blade in a force vs force kind of way. From what I've seen of a few videos I came across., it looks as if the Germans did the same thing with their longswords. I'm assuming that this is a common tactic as well? And if so, was this used with most (if not all) of their swords (ie, longswords, bastard swords, side swords, etc)?
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William P




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul, 2011 4:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

if you guys think hes got the skills im not one to argue.. but ill admit grand wushu champion admittedly to me doesnt say much due to the fancy schmancy nature of wushu. compared to say. wudang or taichi or bagua or something else which would say something more about bringing relevent skills to the table. for a historical fighter
i watched the final 'DW 'simulation', and what happens is vlad sidesteps sun tzus thrust and well.. cuts sun tzus hand off.

a curious annotation regarding thrusting vs cutting. this is from the sharpe series. where sharpe with his iconic butchers blade the 1796 heavy cavalry sword facing a vry skilled swordsman with a rapier of some sort. richard, unable to best him in skill LETS el catolico stab him in the leg and traps his blade, and then a seond later rips him apart.

the book also makes a point of a curious maxim i.e point beats edge, one time he notes this is when a group of redcoats are deperately defending their colours from some dragoons, a dragoon mkes a cut at one of the soldiers, who just knocks his blade aside with his bayonetted musket and skewers the cavalryman.
admittedly these arnt actually historical accounts seing as sharpe himself never existed

but on the subject of european vs chinese in one catagory we DO have a very good record of both sides using this weapon. i.e the curved, sngle edged swords sch as the messer/ falchion and the dao. though it seems people havemore knowledge of the doble edged varieties rapiers longswords jian etc.

unless theres a form i havent sen one move for messer thats not seen in dao is shown in a video by real gladiatores where the messer is used to domordeschlag's i.e murderstroke (for those who dont know what that is its where you grip the blade, usually n both hands and whack the guy with the hilt and pommel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ shown here
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of my personal friends "Nia" is a Master of Wushu, a former Recon in Vietnam and then became a Merc! One kick to the chest from Nia and he would hand you (hypothetical including me) your lungs and heart! Studied Wushu since age 5 and yet to this dayup in his mid 60s can do the full splits sideways or front to back with thighs like oak trees.
5' 9" 215lbs of walking death!
Wushu is NOT an art to be disrespected, there are soft styles and hard styles, each having it's strong points. Funny thing is that most people who start Wushu "QUIT"! Because it is so demanding on the human body in being limber and powerful in those limber strikes, it's a mix of circular and linear movements at breakneck speed, dexterity, coordination and balance like an acrobat!
It really shows me a total lack of knowledge as to the art of Shaolin Wushu Kung Fu!
The very reason the UFC was started came from centuries of disrespect and ignorance (without knowledge of something, and not an "insult" like the word "Stupid") of other arts, even in it's early days. When there were less rules in the UFC, it was still a very inaccurate portrayal of the individual arts. No small joint manipulations no finger strikes, no eye gouging, throat extractions via fore finger, middle finger and thumb, no eardrum busting, no grabbing two fingers in each hand and ripping the hand in half down thru the palm, no strikes to the cervical region of the spine, etc. Well that's half the art of the kung fu I studied. And half the art of Wushu!
Of Course these tactics and many others are going to be illegal! Half the participants would be either dead or maimed for life! MMA is not "Real martial Arts Combat", but it IS the closest thing to reality with responsible safety! Actually my last instructor a 5th dan in Kenpo karate (similar to some forms of kung fu) and former Navy SEAL had a fit when the UFC became more stringent with safety rules. When he fought there were no rounds or weight classes and at 5' 11". 210 lbs. In a matter of 1min 59 seconds he TKO'd. The #2 world rated sumo 6' 8". 616 lbs Emanuel Yarborough..
So, could a coutly jian sword beat a German Bastard Sword or a claymore? Based on what my master. Did in UFC 3, in ".)" Opinion, Hell YES! It's technique, timing, controlling the distance. The smaller weapon has the speed and if the wielder of that weapon get's inside the striking zone of the bigger weapon, then the latter said warrior is in a Whole Mess of Trouble!
Big weapons and hard styles of martial arts are NO guarantee. The soft stylist with his smaller weapon has speed and stealth vs size and power. Scissors cut paper, a rock smashes scissors and paper covers rocks. If the rock cannot see then he cannot smash the scissors so he needs the scissors to cut the paper or he is made blind to the omnipresence of the paper.
Every move has a counter move or strike, every strength has a weakness and even weakness has strength. In it's technique. Such is the Ying and the Yang.
Bob

It IS What It IS! Only In Truth, Can Reality Exist!
To "Learn" we must empty our minds and therefore open our mind and spirit. A wet sponge absorbs no water. A preconceived mind is recalcitrant to new knowledge!


Last edited by Bob Burns on Tue 02 Aug, 2011 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bennison N




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 5:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bob,

Traditionally Wushu, meant exactly what it's Chinese translation says it is... "Martial Techniques". But I think what is being said here is that these days, "Wushu" is the modern general term for Chinese Demonstration Martial Arts (like in the All China Games), and not the fighting application. My first teacher was an International Wushu Judge, and explained it all to me years ago... And so I "quit" Wushu, in favour of a technique I could actually use for fighting. He put me onto Pak Mei Kuen (白眉拳), the "White Eyebrow Fist"... Chalk and cheese.

Think more along the lines of Olympic Gymnastic floor routines, but with martial arts techniques, and sometimes with weapons. There are even certain moves that have to be performed in the routine, like the compusory tumbles in Olympic Gymnastics. Techniques are sped right up, to look livelier. Lighter, less solid ( Big Grin haha!) weapons are used, to ensure the increase in speed and to add effect. Extra, and totally unnecessary, flips and spins are added for even more visual effect. Obviously a loss in power, and an incredible loss of energy results from this. If, for instance, my flippy, spinny opponent and I have the same puff, I can use the energy he uses for his acrobatics for actually hitting him.

There are fighting sports related to Wushu, like San Da, San Shou and the recently recreated (and still starting out) Lei Tai fighting. For Jianshu in particular, we can't forget Scott Rodell's TCSL tourneys, and the World Jianshu League Comps as well.

But Johnny Yang's major accomplishments are in Forms and Choreographed Fighting. His specialty weapon is in fact the Spear (with which he has amazing skills), and not the Jian. He's the "success goes to the persevering" guy, one of the top 10 Martial Arts performers in the United States right now. His base will be in traditional and effective Chinese Martial Arts, but his major accomplishments are in the performance aspect of it.

If it was at all about true historical accuracy, Deadliest Warrior should have had him using a spear with a tassel... For one, it's what Johnny Yang is good at. Second, the Jian they used appears to have been sent back more than 1500 years in time to be found by Sun Tzu. And third, it was what a soldier in Sun Tzu's time (and pretty much all of Chinese history) would've used in a battle, although I'm not sure if tassels were that popular in the Chinese Bronze Age.

I like William P's comparison between Dao and Messers and Falchions. I'd even be interested in how Dao compares to other European single-edged swords, like Sabres, Cutlasses and Hangers. Who is able to comment on the use of a Messer/Falchion? I must admit that I know very little about it.

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 6:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes Bennison, now that you mention it there wqas something attached to the Wushu that Nia studied and it was highly combative but for the life of me I cannot remember because he and I just called it Wushu for short. His specialty weapons were the section chainwhip which when he snapped it forward it sounded like a . 44magnum, each section of the chain being a rod about 7 inches then a link to the next rod and so on until it terminated in an acutely pointed dart about 5/8 or so in diameter with several. Red strips of silk. I watched him explode a pumpkin with that thin!!!!! His other favorites were the staff, 3 section staff, fighting. Sticks andthe "Yan Yue Dao" (Chinese polearm not too unlike a glaive).

Thanks for reminding me of something I completely forgot about! My arts were. Chuan Fa Kung Fu, equal to 1st brown when the school closed. Tae Kwon do 1st Dan and Hackney's Reality Standup Combat 1st Dan in Roselle, IL. Oct 2004. Before bone to bone. Arthritis washed me up! LOL which in turn brought my REAL LOVE into my life, "SWORDS"!

Bob

It IS What It IS! Only In Truth, Can Reality Exist!
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 11:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The "Dao" is quite a sword with some curve towards the distal portion making it quite the cutting sword, with some daos having a point similar to a tanto. I know my posts give off a flavor as though I find the Chinese sword and swordsmanship superior to German swords and swordsmanship, but that is not at all the case in point. To underestimate the German martial arts of. Swordsmanship would be a foolish and woefull mistake indeed.
I have only expounded on Chinese swordsmanship because there is from what I have seen, so little information on this. Unique and deadly art. Do I think Chinese swordsmanship is superior to German. Swordsmanship? Definitely NOT! Who do I think would win? Well that has a lot to do with the generals, terrain, weather, strategies. And the two cultures are so different
It's mind boggling, I would not dare pick who would win, not even in a one on one combat! Much has been written on Japanese, Mongolian, most certainly German swordsmanship (and I am the Proud owner of all of Christian Henry Tobler's books except his most recent which I will soon get)! But in all my 170 related books, only 1 is on Chinese swordsmanship and it is solely dedicated to the Jian. I have found nothing on the. "Willowleaf" sword from the Song Dynasty and I have a superior fine replica by Hanwei, they're former version with brass furniture. Whether the newer or older version, the geometry of the blade is highly complex, from pommel to point it is of a soft "S" shape. Making it an. ExtremEly fierce cutting single edge sword with a point that is definitely fashioned to be a powerful thrusting weapon with the balance point at 5 inches from the guard. The blade is about a foot shorter than the Arms and Armor German Bastard Sword. A 25 1/2 inch S curved single edged one handed sword as opposed to a straight double edged 37 1/2 inch hand and a half mostly two handed sword. And half the weight.. I have foung no information on how my "Song Sword" was used but I have a pretty good idea. One thing I know it's curved for the cut and the spine side to get around shields and blades to thrust. I think of it as a light falchion on steroids! LOL!

Bob

It IS What It IS! Only In Truth, Can Reality Exist!
To "Learn" we must empty our minds and therefore open our mind and spirit. A wet sponge absorbs no water. A preconceived mind is recalcitrant to new knowledge!
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PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2011 6:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marco S wrote:
One thing I wanted to ask, since my knowledge of German swordsmanship is very limited. A main tactic used with the jian is to have the opponent's blade slide off of yours as you move in to counter and strike. You rarely ever go with a hard block, or intercept their blade in a force vs force kind of way. From what I've seen of a few videos I came across., it looks as if the Germans did the same thing with their longswords. I'm assuming that this is a common tactic as well? And if so, was this used with most (if not all) of their swords (ie, longswords, bastard swords, side swords, etc)?


yes, german work is all re-directions, deflections/setting aside, and of course just moving out of the way. :P hit the blade from the side of the direction of attack with a krumphau or zwerchau taking his throat or eyes as you do, or redel into the attack letting his blade expend its force sliding up to your guard while guiding your point into his face or chest... the options are endless
the way my teacher puts it a straight block is an "oh sh!t defense" which means something has already gone wrong.

also because the longsword is the basis for the rest of the weapons in the system (in liechtenauer anyways) you will see this with everything else too. (poleaxe, arming sword, sword and buckler, messer, etc.)

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-Le Livre de Chevalerie, Geffroi Charny-
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William P




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2011 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

bennison explained what i was getting at. im not in anyway dsrespecting the hard work that goes into doing wushu or any martial art. even the prformance gymnastic style wushu.
i am questioning however the actual combative realism of what goes into wushu

its like getting someone doing stage combat to represent rapier dagger for example. there are some good schools out there i heard that when milke loades tought at a stage combat school he tried to incorperate the techniques of the old manuscripts etc but its still not the same as being in the ARMA or HEMA or other dedicated WMA schools and nor is it as representative of actual fighting techniques of the period.

im not dissing johhnys skill as a martial artist but question of course is if his skills are relevent enough to be used as a representation.

admittedly my perception of the dao is based not off the hanwei song dynasty but the ox-tail dao even though its of a later period and never used in the military (to my knowledge) it is like the venetian cinquedea or something i.e a civilians weapon only.

though actually bennison my understanding is that after the han dynasty jian were almost completely replaced by dao. DAO were the fighting instrument of the battlefield as opposed to jian. think only a very select few used jian due to an apparent increased focus on cavalry which jian are less suited to than dao (thatswhat ive read online anyway)

i dont as commonly remember ones like the goose feather dao or the willow leaf dao admittedly when thinking of abilities.

but as stated before it seems people know jian more but theres very little out there in the popular literatur on arming sword on ts own i.e how the jian is most commonly wielded
the dao has like the jian REAMS and reams of minformation, forms dating back heaps far back. acomplished lifelong masters etc.
and more importantly there is a quite healthy amount of lone messer V messer available. atleast online. though the most common in german martial arts is of course the longswords.

when i look at comparing weapons from different cultures i look for as many similarities in weapon form and function.

i look at for swords.
arethey single/ double edged?
are they straight or curved are they 2 handed or 1 handed.

which is why i wont for example look at sword and buckler vs jian and tempai or jian alone because that buckler is too different to either and style of fightng changes. which is whydao and messer is a good idea for comparison they are both largely single handed curved single edged swords. and neither of them usually have massive basket hilts.

id try and look at items that are as reletively similar to each other as possible

for example going back to DW with vlad, he used a swiss halberd, now a common polearm in warring states china was the ji. in terms offunctional abil;ities its very similar to the swis halberd. both capable of chopping, hookings stabbing etc. the differences between the two are merely in the techniques i using the weapon.. and the actualspecs of the weapon in terms of how good a thruster one ishow good a scytheing weapon it might be etc.

thats how i look at swords f when trying to compare them


deviating now to the topic of screen vs battlefield etc

i looked up vlads 'experts' the longhaired guy vaslav havlik is a magician.. the other guy brahm gallager is an actor who specialises in the simmering psycopathic natue of man. not unlike heath ledger and the joker.
and look what he said on his website http://brahmgallagher.nowcasting.com/
06-29-2010Deadliest Warrior, Season 2

It's being called the "bloodiest battle to date" and I had both hands wrist deep in it! VLAD the IMPALER vs. Sun Tzu airing June 29th on Spike TV. Hilarious in it's absurdity - if I can fool 'em as an expert on Vlad, I must have done something right! We shall see.....
but i have to say he might have known jack all about vlads weapons, but he seemed to know how to load that hand cannon aim AND shoot 3 targets pretty accurately without killing himself in the process showcased how little skill thats needed to still be lethal with early firearms. which might explain its appeal in equipping large armies with.

that and like when they replicate vlads impaling method the way he dscribed the fear vlad wished to instill in opponenets and at other moments. i think he channeled that sort of cold blooded psycopathic nature thats attributed to vlad to the point where he was genuinely chilling.

that said all is not lost my brothers friend is getting into film and stage design and said that he might have need of me to advise on props for if he did a history based one. since im well known as the history nut in my circle.
next time i see him im going to give him the website of the australias overarching reenactment group body the ALHF and tell him to plug the reenactment groups for adivisce on costumes props even extras because i know just how much information is stored in the collective mind of a reenactent group and the fact that many will have fairly accurate replicas of weapons etc.
that and im going to ask for advice here as well and give him this website too.
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