german vs. Chinese swordsmanship -- myArmoury.com

Bob Burns · Posted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject:

Some things I failed to point out was the timeline of the Jian, although I did utilize same time period EUropean swords which is relative to the later period of the German Longsword. Interestingly I also have the Hanwei Song Sword which was popular from about 975 to around 1130 or a little later, also called a willowleaf sword.
Everything Bennison said is correct and I am glad he pointed out things I failed to address. I was more focused on the rather unique fighting style of the Jian, some of which were highly ornate presentation swords.
For a gentleman's sword or personal defense, in my opinion there is nothing faster than a Jian, nor at such speed as versatile. The latter of which I think makes it faster than even a smallsword which was focused to the thrust. With the Jian being able to thrust, slash and cut, I think naturally makes it faster in repetition strikes, which is what I mean by faster, the number of strikes possible in a given period of time and not in the context of a one strike scenario. Yes, on the basis of single strike speed, whether sword, dagger, unarmed, etc, "You have to get it there"! Just because a strike, whatever the weapon from fist to sword, in order to be effective, contact of the target has to be made! As explained to me by my last martial arts instructor Keith Hackney "Reality Combat" former Navy SEAL and UFC competitor, famed as "The Giant Killer" for his 1 minute 59 second TKO over 6' 8". 616 pounds # 2 ranked Sumo. Emanuel Yarborough in UFC 3.
I once said to Keith that once you get your finger in the opponents eye socket the fight is over. His response, "Yes, but you have to get it there.
Long winded but a good example about speed.
Bob

Bill Grandy · myArmoury Team

William P · Posted: Sat 23 Jul, 2011 6:25 am Post subject:

ive tracked down a comment mentioned to me on youtube by a guy called swordsage. regarding jian andtheir Pob, my wallhanger is overall 680 grams, or so with the handle guard and pommel weighing 400 grams. most of that weight located in the guard (about 280 grams) the blade is the other 280 grams. as a result we have a POB about 8-10cm from when the guard meets the blade (blade length 74cm) according to him;
]
"A good point of balance for well made jian tend to be between 4 and 5 inches away from where the blade meets the hand guard. I know some people like it closer to the handguard, but the fact is that if you balance it like that, the weight ratio messes with the jian's ability to cut. The jian is designed to be a a cut and thrust sword, not just a thrust sword like a rapier. A lot of people seem to think it's the latter, but that's not how it was used historically. "

its interesting though that the han period jian was not unlike the viking sword, though interestingly was had a pretty long grip

F. Carl Holz · Posted: Sat 23 Jul, 2011 8:15 am Post subject:

wow, sounds like the jian is its own beast (not sure thats the right word though.)
i'm going to have to find a chance to handle one some time.

Bob Burns · Posted: Sat 23 Jul, 2011 9:02 am Post subject:

Perhaps this will be found interesting and not a debate as to the balance point of the Jian sword. We have two by Hanwei, the .Ming Sword which has a balance point about 5 inches from the guard. While the Shaolin Wootz sword which had to be authorized by the priests and monks of the shaolin temple has a balance point 2 inches from the blade side of the guard or 3 to 4 inches from the hand. The latter which would increase the speed and dexterity for the aet form of the Jian in Kung Fu.

William P · Posted: Sun 24 Jul, 2011 5:26 am Post subject:

Michael Curl · Posted: Sun 24 Jul, 2011 7:12 am Post subject:

4 or 5" down from guard? That's insane for a thrust focused weapon.

Taylor Ellis · Posted: Sun 24 Jul, 2011 7:50 am Post subject:

I think that jian (or dao) vs German longsword would go similarly to how wrestling vs kung fu has in the ufc. Of course individual prowess and all that, but I know what I'd bet on.

William P · Posted: Sun 24 Jul, 2011 8:20 am Post subject:

Bob Burns · Posted: Sun 24 Jul, 2011 8:39 am Post subject:

Not on this one Michael, because. The sword only weighs about 14 ounces to 16 ounces and it feels awesome in the hand and at such an extreme light weight it does lend accuracy and power to the thrust! And I Am very "Rapier Familiar"! Now if it were a sword with any real weight to it, yes Michael it would be Absurd!!!!! But not at 14 or 16 ounces. I will give the specs.
Overall length 33 9/16 inches. Outside grip length Pommel to blade side of guard 7 7/16 inches, the guard is Almost weightless with a buffalo horn grip. Blade length is 26 1/2 inches. Blade width at guard is 1 1/32 inches halfway point of the blade 13 1/4 inches it is 3/4 of an inch wide. At one inch from point the blade is 1/2 of an inch. The point is a powerful arrowhead type needle point where the raised fuller edges terminate.
NO! This is not a slight whippy blade! In fact it's rigid with nice flexion and a pattern steel blade being so lightweight and I just now did several thrusts it is dead on accurate with little effort! You gotta wield this Sword to believe it! I got it for my wife for $700.00 and it retailed for $1,375.00. This sword is amazing it's near razor sharp and I watched my wife Gayle cut 4 jugs completely in half with it, starting at the top she cut each jug 3 to 5 times. Target thrust strikes the Ming Sword is dead on target without effort! Just rechecked the balance point and it's 4 inches being a Jian, it is not a thrusting sword, it's a thrust, slash and cut sword. Fast? It's Greased Lightening! At 16 ounces or less with A perfect flexion and stiffness characteristics to the blade. As beautiful as this sword is, trust me, it's also a holy terror of a sword! I do mean "Deadly"!!

Bob

Marco S · Posted: Sun 24 Jul, 2011 3:05 pm Post subject:

Timo Nieminen · Posted: Sun 24 Jul, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject:

Jian, jian, and more jian - not just one type of jian. What is a "typical" jian? Unfortunately for trying to give a nice set of typical stats, there is much variety among jian.

A classic type is the full-length cut-and-thrust type jian an officer might have used. Of examples with weights that I've found, most seem to be about 1.0-1.1kg. This is a little heavier than typical military dao, which appear to be about 900g on average. These jian tend to be a little longer than dao; the extra length likely accounts for the extra weight. This is a little heavier than the 700-900g that Wikipedia has as typical for jian of 28" blade. Most weights from Alex Huangfu's Iron and Steel Swords of China, and a few from Western museum specimens as well. This is much lighter than for typical rapiers (not unusual to see 1.5kg rapiers), but they're also much shorter.

Then there are militia and non-fancy civilian jian. Weight for these range from quite light for the shorter ones, to over 1kg. The heavier ones are stout, rather than long, usually.

Then there are court jian, fancy jian for wearing around the court. I don't have any weights for any examples of these. I think this is what the Hanwei Ming jian is meant to be an example of. These should be lighter, perhaps much lighter, than the heavy "military" jian. I have an example of a late Qing dao court sword, 520g, and built like a lightweight military dao.

Then there are dirk-sized jian. About 300g for 15" of blade looks normal.

Then there are "ancient" jian, both genuine ancient ones and old (e.g., Ming/Qing) replicas.

I've not handled any antique full-length jian, so can't comment on them. For modern jian, good ones are often about 900g, and have a centre of percussion (i.e., pivot point) very close to the tip. This is nice for a thrusting sword.

William P · Posted: Sun 24 Jul, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject:

im gonna agree with marco, ive seen the ming jian up close a number of times but ive neer held it. and i dont think ive ever considered it to besomething capable of cutting very well. ive seen it as definatively more like a rapier or smallsword just based on the fact it has such a narrow blade. and such an acute point

Percival Koehl · Posted: Sun 24 Jul, 2011 6:51 pm Post subject:

I don't know if it was on this forum or elsewhere, but I remember someone mentioning how they tried some tai chi with a fourteenth-century sidesword and found it worked reasonably well. I think it was a replica of one of King Edward III's. I've done a bit of tai chi myself, but not with a sword, so I don't know, but it was an interesting note.

F. Carl Holz · Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2011 2:14 am Post subject:

nice!

so, anyone here have any experience with mixing chinese martial arts with european swords or german martial arts with chinese swords?

Bob Burns · Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2011 12:27 pm Post subject:

Timo, very well spoken, Jian, Jian, Jian and more Jians! EXACTLY! As I said in a prior post. Either this thread or the Shaolin Wootz sword. The JIan is a sword all it's own and if anyone is under the impression that the Hanwei Ming sword at 14 to 16 ounces is not a lethal sword, WOW are you in for a surprise! This sword will open. An abdomen in the flash of a second, it eill thrust thru the human body 6 times in 3 seconds, completely thru! Will it stop a highland claymore? Of course not!
How much does a surgeons scalpal weigh?it is not the size of the sword so much as how it is used! I remember some 4 years or so ago, there was a hot debate as to whether a thin Italian Rapier could cut? Yes it sure can and I proved it in front of several people in this forum as well as producing photos of my 3 ring Italian Rapier cutting huge plastic cat litter jugs in half as easily as my Highland Claymore!
Now as stated before I am not an accomplished swordsman, I am an accomplished martial artist, but the two are different! I would have no chance with a sword against Bill Grandy but someone breaks into my home I could mutilate them with a kitchen fork! My point is NOT about me, It's about how a weapon is used and the strategy involved. At nearly 54 I am well past my prime!
I have that Ming SWord in my hand to battle an armed home invader, well someone call an ambulance quick! My point, I would indeed entrust "MY". Life to the Hanwei Ming Sword! 16 ounces of greased lightening ferocity and it WILL open an abdomen and spill out vital organs in a second! Graphic yes, but this particular lightweight. Jian sword is not to be under estimated! No, your not going to attack a pike formation with the Ming sword, it's not a zweihander! Again. I compliment Timo! Jian, Jian, Jian and Jians! Now to quote myself. The Jian is a sword all it's own and nothing else exacting to it and there are different types of Jians as there are different types of hand and a half swords.

I hope this helps!
Bob

Bennison N · Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject:

Michael Curl · Posted: Mon 25 Jul, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject:

Anyone have the interest in making a chinese swords, or jian feature article? It would do everyone a lot of good to have a feature article on jian, or katanas, since we lack them.

Bob Burns · Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 11:25 am Post subject:

This post hopefully will clear some things up about the Jian Sword, how it's used by a reknown Wu Shu. 6 time grand champion "Johnny Yang" on the TV Series "Deadliest Warrior". This episode depicts Vlad The Impaler against "Sun Tzu".
Wu Shu Master Johnny Yang uses the Jian on a dead and suspended pig. All of several thrusts went completely thru with at least a foot of the sword blade out the other side of the thickest part of the pig. All 4 or 5 cuts were to or past the midway point of the pig carcass, he also did two handed techniques with his single hand grip Jian sword. On the thrusts and cuts the Jian remained stiff with no give to the blade.
Perhaps Johnny Yang can be watched with his Jian on You Tube, I have not searched the issue yet. However Master Yang is an example of mesmerizing and outstanding skill. His Jian looks to be about a 36 inch long blade.
Hopefully everyone who wants to watch this Jian Expert will be successful! We have two Jian swords, both are from Hanwei's "top shelf" line. The "Ming" is Gayle's and the Shaolin Wootz is mine, but every sword is "ours". Five years ago, Gayle went from being a "sword wife" to a "Sword Enthusiast" in her Own Right! Yes I am very lucky, and she has a very discerning taste, she "Knows" Quality in swords, daggers and polearms, what to look for and what to avoid! But. Just try to get her to watch an NFL football game! LOL! Of the two, I am so glad and Grateful that Gayle Truly Loves swords! I am So Very Lucky in this and I am most appreciative of and for her!

Bob

Marco S · Posted: Tue 26 Jul, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject:

I definitely agree with Timo.. there certainly have been many jian made over the years with different weights and lengths, and it can be hard to come up with an "average" piece. And every swordsman is different so they are going to have their own perfected specs, from weights, to balance points. However, I will contend that there are some specs that are more suited to combat use than others. And Bob, as much as I admire your enthusiasm for the jian, and the Hanwei Ming jian in particular, I still find that I would prefer a slightly heavier sword if I was going to use it against another swordsman.

Granted, if I was going to defend my home with a weapon against an intruder... well honestly, I'd just use a gun, but throwing that aside, yes, that ming sword would be really nice. It's light, fast, and razor sharp, so any flesh caught in the way is getting cut, no two ways about it. But how well is it constructed for constant combat use? Considering that Hanwei doesn't even recommend cutting with it (in fact, the only jian they do say is ok to cut with last time I checked was the one Scott Rodell helped design), it's not exactly something I'd pick up as a first choice. Even Timo suggested that it was patterned to be like a court sword. Now, that doesn't mean it can't be lethal, but there's more to a good sword than just being sharp. The fact is, people didn't bring court swords to battle; no matter how light or quick they were, they also needed to be able to withstand the rigors of combat. Good construction, a decent enough weight and shock absorbency play a key role. And again, being super sharp isn't everything; there are lots of stainless steel wall hangers with really sharp blades. Would you pick up one of those to defend yourself with?

Again. this is not to disparage you or the weapon. I like that you present just how well jian can function as a weapon, and I do think the Ming jian is a nice piece... I wouldn't have wanted one if I thought otherwise. And really, it does go back to what one prefers: I know other jian users who disagree with my own preference (I'm a 5'7 guy, and I use a jian that weighs over 2 lbs with a 32 inch blade). But at the end of the day, it just wouldn't be my first choice as a weapon to use to defend myself against someone else with a melee weapon... save if theirs is as light as that one. If Hanwei themselves doesn't recommend any rigorous use of that weapon, who am I to argue with them?

I do have to say though that you are right about it ultimately being about how good the sword-fighter is. A good jian swordsman using that ming dynasty jian could probably take someone with weaker skills using a much heavier weapon apart. Jian swordplay is heavy on using good footwork and positioning after all; it's all about opening the opponent up and getting in a decisive hit on an open spot on their body. But there will be some blade contact every now and then; not as much as in the movies, but some. And while the jian is not meant to be used as a heavy blocking weapon (parries and slides are more the rule), and evasion is the ideal, there are still techniques that depend upon some blade contact. And I'd want to make sure there is just enough weight on my sword to make those techniques work. Just under a pound is too light for my tastes... I shudder to think of a cloud parry going wrong with it. Then again, I'm sure someone could make a good argument about mounting a blistering attack with so light a sword... so what do I know? :P