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Glen A Cleeton
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 Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | It seems to be truncating the article when I open it now, for some reason. The axe cost £1195, before shipping.
By the way Jeff, thank you very much for posting the information that you did. It will help me a lot in getting a refund.
What is the value of an antique barte? It's possible that my haft is the original haft; it certainly looks like the wooden hafts seen on 17th century polearms. I'm curious what a complete, original specimen is worth. |
I was able to read it as dial up let the text load before the sign up pop up. A bit from that to consider in hindsight.
The steel “bearded” axe is thought to have belonged to a Scots foot soldier who may have used it the previous year to help win the Battle of Stirling Bridge before dying on the battlefield at Falkirk.
His axe was found centuries later and hung on the wall of a noble’s mansion until it found its way to Lanes Armoury in Brighton, East Sussex.
There is no real provenance offered in that article. What it is mostly is a story. Even when buying an item without considering the stories or listings, one can still be fooled or something may not be as it seems. I have a feeling that both the article and any listing left enough unsaid to let a person see what they want to see. It is often the case that someone then just passes the story along. I don't know the Mr. Hawkins from Lanes but even the best can make a mistake. However, that an item sits at a "wow" price for a long time usually says something right there.
As to value, it is unfortunately a buyer that actually sets the price.
The Higgins just sold some more "off" stuff on the Skinner's auction list over the weekend.
http://www.skinnerinc.com/index.php
I almost added that to the Ebay watch thread but it might have turned into a discussion of why they were being sold off. They probably were culling off modern made recreations. Or not but that is likely.
Cheers
GC
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Do you think that this is a case of an honest mistake where the vendor believed the provenance and identification of the piece and they too are the " victim " of bad research or expertise ( ? ): If an honest mistake I would take the loss for the shipping costs, If it wasn't an honest mistake just getting your money back may be a challenge ?
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Here's something. When my order was being processed, I sent an email to the Lanes requesting documentation on the provenence of the axe. Mark told me that "all our purchases are supplied with documentation and a Certificate of Authenticity, and provenence as known. No problem at all in supplying that for you." I still have the email exchange saved in my Gmail account.
When I received the axe, there was indeed a Certificate of Authenticity, stating that the axe was for display purposes only, and stating that it was at least 600 years old, a claim that, ironically enough, is also untrue, among the numerous claims made about this axe. However, there was no documentation regarding the provenance of the axe whatsoever. I had been meaning to contact the Hawkins to request the provenance of the axe, until I received the news from Peter that the axe was not at all what I had thought it to be.
It would seem to me that, if you are selling reputable artifacts, including the documentation of provenence with each and every order is as crucial as remembering to include a packing invoice in a business shipment. It strikes me that this omission is more than a little suspect, especially given that I was assured they would include this information as part of my order.
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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Strange. I hope this experience hasn't put you off from acquiring other pieces in the future though.
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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It has not put me off at all, but it is very clear to me that I need to do far more research and be far more informed myself before engaging in a transaction of this nature. It's also reinforced that I need to be extremely careful about the dealers purchased from, because a seemingly reasonably reputably dealer might have an item that is not at all what it was presented to be.
My main goal for future medieval pieces is to own original swords. But I would also like to find a medieval war axe too.
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William P
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| Posted: Tue 19 Jul, 2011 7:22 am Post subject: |
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on the subject of axes i here have a couple of japanese woodblocks showcasing ono or axes,
would you guys say that these axes are a type suitable for battle.
more in terms of the head design as opposed to their size which look like they would be HUGELY heavy?
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Gene W
Location: The South Of England Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Tue 19 Jul, 2011 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Hi William,
I think the fact that there are so few examples of the 'classic' oversized O-no axes shows that they are at best exaggerated in the woodcuts and paintings.
The only actual example of a geunine antique one that I can think of is the one from Stones.
Best
Gene
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William P
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| Posted: Tue 19 Jul, 2011 10:22 am Post subject: |
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it seems that, in japan the o-no was a minority item..
do you know what period that axe is dated to??
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Gene W
Location: The South Of England Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Tue 19 Jul, 2011 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: | it seems that, in japan the o-no was a minority item..
do you know what period that axe is dated to?? |
Stone doesn't provide a date for it.
Apparently total length of shaft is 5' 9.5"
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 5:00 am Post subject: |
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On The Lanes Armoury Announcements page, at the bottom, is an article about the alleged axe I purchased. It is from the Glasgow Herald, written by George Mair August 6th 2009. Note carefully the date. The end of the article reads:
"LATEST. The Lanes Armoury are especially pleased to announce the axe has now been returned home to Falkirk under [sic] it's latest stewardship by a new owner," http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/announce.php at the very bottom of the page.
I will leave it up to you to draw the conclusions about what this means. I can tell you, however, that my receipt in Google Mail lists my Order Details for my purchase as "Original Bearded Battle Axe Sir William Wallace Period of the 13th Century from the era of The Battle of Falkirk and the Battle of Stirling Bridge."
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Gene W
Location: The South Of England Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | On The Lanes Armoury Announcements page, at the bottom, is an article about the alleged axe I purchased. It is from the Glasgow Herald, written by George Mair August 6th 2009. Note carefully the date. The end of the article reads:
"LATEST. The Lanes Armoury are especially pleased to announce the axe has now been returned home to Falkirk under [sic] it's latest stewardship by a new owner," http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/announce.php at the very bottom of the page.
I will leave it up to you to draw the conclusions about what this means. I can tell you, however, that my receipt in Google Mail lists my Order Details for my purchase as "Original Bearded Battle Axe Sir William Wallace Period of the 13th Century from the era of The Battle of Falkirk and the Battle of Stirling Bridge." |
Craig,
Have you spoken to them about your concerns and returning the axe?
Gene
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Edited
Last edited by Craig Peters on Fri 22 Jul, 2011 7:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gene W
Location: The South Of England Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Thu 21 Jul, 2011 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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I think it might be an idea to edit your last reply at this point.
I can completely understand your concerns, but it might be best to avoid conjecture in order to preserve as cordial a relationship as possible with the seller while this is being resolved.
A good seller will place customer satisfaction and reputation above all else. Let's see what the seller comes back with now that you have gone to him with your concerns.
Gene
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William P
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jul, 2011 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Gene W wrote: | | William P wrote: | it seems that, in japan the o-no was a minority item..
do you know what period that axe is dated to?? |
Stone doesn't provide a date for it.
Apparently total length of shaft is 5' 9.5" |
im sorry but where did you find this picture, who is 'stones'?? just so i can go look for more information.
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Tomas B
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jul, 2011 2:26 am Post subject: |
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I believe he is referring to George Cameron Stone's book "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times: Together with Some Closely Related Subjects".
http://books.google.com/books/about/A_Glossar...PgapzD6FoC
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jul, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Craig, it is a really nice looking axe. I can see how any one of us would buy it for the very same reasons you did.
Anyway, I hope this works out for you and that the tool axe winds up in the right place for it.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Bob Burgess
Location: Wiltshire UK Joined: 30 May 2011
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Mon 08 Aug, 2011 1:28 am Post subject: |
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A little outside my area of expertise, but no doubt many tools were used as weapons, and it would not be uncommon to have a small axe tucked into a belt to use when all else fails. When armies were on the move, or if fighting forward or withdrawing from a position, they had to carry everything with them or lose it. Thus a camp axe could find itself on a battlefield????
With regards to its period and authenticity, its shape looks to be more French than English or Scottish, and the triangular eye is also typically French (it ws used on felling axes known as a 'cognée' well into the 20th century).
For a valuation as an early axe, I suggest you contact one of the specialist tool auctioneers:
David Stanley (UK) http://www.davidstanley.com/about%20us.htm
Tony Murland (UK) http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/about.php
Roger Verdier (FR) http://outils-passion.com/
Brown Auctions (USA) http://www.finetoolj.com/brownAuctions/current.html
Martin J Donnelly (USA) http://www.mjdtools.com/
French axes from a 1920's catalogue for comparison (Leborgne, Pont de Bens , Arvillard, France)
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Edge tool collector and historian, with a special interest in the billhook...
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Mon 08 Aug, 2011 1:55 am Post subject: |
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Okay, so from the chart, it sounds like the "hache de charpentier" is a carpenter's axe, and the "hache a abattre" is a felling axe. What is the "hache de bolseur"?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 08 Aug, 2011 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | | Okay, so from the chart, it sounds like the "hache de charpentier" is a carpenter's axe, and the "hache a abattre" is a felling axe. What is the "hache de bolseur"? |
From my very old Larousse dictionary 1952 edition:
BOISEUR: Labourer working in a mine doing " boisage " work.
BOISAGE: Wood framework shoring up a mine gallery.
So I guess it would be to cut or trim or shape wood beams on the spot i.e. join, cut to length probably semi prepared standard sized beams or any other wood work needed in a mine 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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James Head
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| Posted: Mon 08 Aug, 2011 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Hi Craig and Jean. Yes, it certainly looks like a long handled Broad Axe. Which is exactly what someone working in a mine would use to create square timbers. Here is a great example of someone squaring off a beam using a long handled broad axe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCUjz61zyrg&feature=related
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Bob Burgess
Location: Wiltshire UK Joined: 30 May 2011
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Boiseur, from bois (wood) one who works with wood - including any heavy or rough timber work, such as shoring up excavations on building sites (as distinct from a carpenter who works to a finer degree of tolerance) - now also the term for a shuttering or formwork carpenter for reinforced concrte work.
Miner's axes are more distinct in shape, often with a heavy poll for driving in wedges, and a down curved blade to avoid hitting the roof of the mine or adit.
Edge tool collector and historian, with a special interest in the billhook...
Last edited by Bob Burgess on Wed 10 Aug, 2011 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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This is a standard topic