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Vincent Le Chevalier
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 Posted: Tue 07 Jun, 2011 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Sander Marechal wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | If the sword is sheathed, though, and the fight starts close, there is a good chance, especially if it's a European sword. |
Why would a European sword be an additional disadvantage here? |
Assuming Michael is comparing to Japanese swords, European swords would generally have a longer, straight blade which make them a bit less practical for a quick draw. Not that I would trust too much the fraction of time this will give, but I guess it could make a difference.
Regards,
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jun, 2011 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob Burns wrote: | As yet another formally trained martial artist with two blackbelts and a high brown, loss of temper is equated with loss of control of the situation, armed or unarmed. Though there is no real defense against a drawn gun, but this is about a swordsman against multiple unarmed attackers! First guy you take out is the most threatening of the group which deflates the courage of the others. No real life threatening situation can be controlled with a preconceived by the book defense technique, in reality it is a "Nightmare" in there and loss of temper, honed skills of timing, distance control and all offense and guard techniques become "blunt"!
Bob |
Ah, glad to see you posting again after a long drought no posting here Bob.
Back to the Topic, I'm not an expert but for the unharmed side moving and keeping out of measure will keep you alive for a while and a near miss by the swordsman can give you an opportunity to block their arm(s) and follow up with a throw or a strike but the odds are heavily more favourable to the swordsman than the unharmed man unless the swordsman forgets all his skills because of overconfidence and uses wide swings or cocks back his sword for heavy but highly telegraphing strike.
( Note a polearm is an even harder opponent to defeat if the guy is in any way a competent fighter ).
The best odds for the unharmed one is taking advantage of a spent blow or the above mentioned highly telegraphed tactical errors.
As an exercise with my swordmaster we tried it out where one of us was armed and really trying to lightly hit/touch the other and the other just moving in any way to not be hit: I would say that the results where interesting in that one could maybe avoid a hit 3 out of 5 times by being out of measure at times by mere inches by tilting ones body away from the blow.
Without a successful counter attack just defensive bobbing and weaving would just mean living a few seconds or minutes more at most !
Possible options:
A) Being able to run away faster and for a longer time than the sword guy.
B) Finding a weapon of opportunity close by very quickly like a pole or a tree branch or finding and accurately throwing a big rock at the swordsman's head.   
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bennison N
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jun, 2011 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Unarmed against sword... Hmmm...
Pick up whatever is lying around. Throw dust in the swordman's eyes. Kick him in the nuts if you can. Keep moving. Keep moving. Try and get the swordsman into as small a space as you can, a doorway or corridor maybe. Uneven or slippery ground is good too. Throw furniture, rocks, shoes even. Use your clothing as a weapon if you can.
Get that blade away (push him when he misses or something), get inside and and grab the hilt. Try to disarm him. Attack that arm or hand or both like crazy, break it if you can. Attack his airway and vision. Keep moving, and get inside as fast as you can.
Because if he gets you once with a good one, you're screwed... Anyway, this is all theory. It's a lot of stuff to remember too... 
I've practised this a lot, and I still get mighty cracks on the skull quite regularly.
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius
अजयखड्गधारी
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jun, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Sander Marechal wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | If the sword is sheathed, though, and the fight starts close, there is a good chance, especially if it's a European sword. |
Why would a European sword be an additional disadvantage here? |
Because there is no evidence that anything equivalent to battodo was practiced in Europe. If anyone has such evidence, it will make me extremely happy.
And also what Vincent said, but the physical characteristics make little difference if you do not practice drawing and cutting in one motion. It's the practice that makes the art, not so much the sword.
I can do nukitsuke (poorly) with a longsword, but if I tried to teach that at a HEMA event I would be lynched. 
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Bennison N
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jun, 2011 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | Sander Marechal wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | If the sword is sheathed, though, and the fight starts close, there is a good chance, especially if it's a European sword. |
Why would a European sword be an additional disadvantage here? |
Because there is no evidence that anything equivalent to battodo was practiced in Europe. If anyone has such evidence, it will make me extremely happy. |
Likewise... Does anyone know of something like that?
I suppose Legionnaires or Hoplites might possibly have had something similar, but what about later on?
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius
अजयखड्गधारी
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jun, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Bennison N wrote: | Keep moving. Keep moving. Try and get the swordsman into as small a space as you can, a doorway or corridor maybe. Uneven or slippery ground is good too. Throw furniture, rocks, shoes even. Use your clothing as a weapon if you can.
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Yeah, basically the only things you can do and hope the sword guy messes up badly: Better than freezing in terror and giving up like a deer caught in the headlights: Do nothing you are dead, do something you have a small chance of coming out alive but the odds are good that you will get cut more or less seriously.
The expression fight or flight is often used as the only choices but there is that worse of all choice which is freezing.
( Note freezing in nature does work in the case of being hunted or stalked because an immobile creature is harder to spot by a predator and rabbits will either run or freeze and only rarely fight until completely cornered, once a predator knows where you are freezing in place is no longer useful ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jun, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Bennison N wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | Sander Marechal wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | If the sword is sheathed, though, and the fight starts close, there is a good chance, especially if it's a European sword. |
Why would a European sword be an additional disadvantage here? |
Because there is no evidence that anything equivalent to battodo was practiced in Europe. If anyone has such evidence, it will make me extremely happy. |
Likewise... Does anyone know of something like that?
I suppose Legionnaires or Hoplites might possibly have had something similar, but what about later on? |
With a gladius or short sword a fast draw is easier and may explain the popularity of daggers in Europe even if armed with a sword at close quarters, caught by surprise, go for your dagger first, maybe ? ( Gladius also worn on the right for a right handed draw when in formation using a shield. Can't do that with a longer blade ).
A cinquedea is a good gladius substitute. ( Just conjecture here and not saying that I have proof of this, but just a gut feeling and also everyone in period would have a knife of some kind on them ...... ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jun, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you so much Johan for your apraisal! Jean my old and good friend since 2005, it's so good to be back in this exceptionally outstanding website, our computer had crashed and other things went south too, now on the mend. Jean I have asked after your's and Nathan's (2 Fine Gentlemen) well being through Arms and Armor and Kult of Athena, constAnt contact with both. Ack to topic.
Emotions of anger and rage, a true martial artist (European Swordsman or other art) will feed on such emotions and take advantage of such adversaries loss of mental control. As Johahn stipulated many such situations can and are diffused with calm psychological control. Two years ago I diffused a threatening situation with a 6' 6" 250 lb intoxicated man, because of my then injured right knee I knew if I did not calm him down I would have to do something permanently maiming to him and I would have to live with that on my conscience and he had no chance!
Fortunately it worked and I even got an apology from him. Horrified relatives of his who tried to stop him coming after me were astounded to witness me calming him down, because when drunk, no one could mellow him out!
Obviously, not all situations can be peacefully reconciled and must be dealt with in violence, such matters one cannot hesitate one second!
Both my blackbelts, one being in Reality. Combat are only a 1st degree blackbelt and such rank as descibed to me by a 6th dan is only just an "Expert Beginner!
So Grateful to be Back in myArmoury!
Bob
It IS What It IS! Only In Truth, Can Reality Exist!
To "Learn" we must empty our minds and therefore open our mind and spirit. A wet sponge absorbs no water. A preconceived mind is recalcitrant to new knowledge!
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Timo Nieminen
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jun, 2011 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Timo Nieminen wrote: |
If using the sword, don't be overconfident, don't wind up for big swings, don't make big wild swings. Use the point, and win at long range. |
| A.V. Dolan wrote: |
Well, even when fighting normally (i.e. against other folks with swords) you don't want to make big wild swings or wind up. |
| William Frisbee wrote: |
That being said an experienced swordsman does neither... |
I think that one would find that in most examples of unarmed vs sword winning, the swordsman was not very experienced. Success for unarmed comes from taking advantages of mistakes, ideally gross blunders rather than small slips.
Still, the experienced can err, whether through extreme stress or overconfidently playing with an assumed to be easy to defeat opponent.
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jun, 2011 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob Burns wrote: | So Grateful to be Back in myArmoury!
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Bob, it's good to see you posting here again. Welcome back.
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Mike O'Hara
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 1:51 am Post subject: Sword v unarmed |
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Hi folks
Some very interesting discussion in this thread.
In looking through the respondents to this thread, I see many of us have cross-trained. My Eastern martial arts experience is extensive (western not so much) - there have been several times where I flubbed a cut and my opponent tried to take advantage by closing. It invariably ends with me sitting on them, or them locked up. I'm usually still holding the sword too..
I can readily see an experienced swordsman being able to use an unarmed or even some dagger moves (without the dagger).
Fiore's moves all build nicely from unarmed to dagger to longsword to polearm. You can see the progression - the weapon adds a different tenor to the strike but many or the moves are the same. Without the elephant (balance) neither armed or unarmed work as well as they could. Grabbing a swordsman who has the full set of training is likely to get you thrown and then stabbed.
Again, assuming relatively equal levels of skill - give me the weapon please.
Michael - loved your description of trying to do iado with a longsword. Might try it with a blunt just for the fun of it.
cheers
mike
MIke O'Hara
Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
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David Clark
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Nice vid and I wonder if the sword guy ever caught up to the other guy ? 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | Sander Marechal wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | If the sword is sheathed, though, and the fight starts close, there is a good chance, especially if it's a European sword. |
Why would a European sword be an additional disadvantage here? |
Because there is no evidence that anything equivalent to battodo was practiced in Europe. If anyone has such evidence, it will make me extremely happy.
And also what Vincent said, but the physical characteristics make little difference if you do not practice drawing and cutting in one motion. It's the practice that makes the art, not so much the sword.
I can do nukitsuke (poorly) with a longsword, but if I tried to teach that at a HEMA event I would be lynched. |
There is one move I learned to attack with a sheathed long sword. As your opponent closes in on you just step forward, and while drawing out your sword you bash the pommel straight up into their face. Then step back completing your sword draw while cutting upwards with the sword (either one handed or by joining your off hand to the sword grip if you're fast enough). It works very well if your opponent isn't expecting it, but it can be countered if they use a double handed grip to push back on your sword as it is coming up (two hands beats one hand in motion always), then it becomes a grappling contest. The only other way would be to use hand/elbow strikes and/or grappling techniques to put them on the ground...and then draw your sword.
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Very good video, I really liked the ending! :-)
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Zach Luna
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
With a gladius or short sword a fast draw is easier and may explain the popularity of daggers in Europe even if armed with a sword at close quarters, caught by surprise, go for your dagger first, maybe ? ( Gladius also worn on the right for a right handed draw when in formation using a shield. Can't do that with a longer blade ).... |
Sure you can. Just put your hand between your flank and the grip, instead of on the outside. Give it a try!
Here's a video showing what I mean. (Some of his other videos are a little wonky, but I love this one.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94c88HfACfQ&feature=relmfu
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Robert Hinds
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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LMAO! I love that vid...what's with all the "HA!"'s?
"Young knight, learn to love God and revere women; thus your honor will grow. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honor in wars." -Johannes Liechtenauer
"...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one..." Luke 22:36
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Zach Luna wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
With a gladius or short sword a fast draw is easier and may explain the popularity of daggers in Europe even if armed with a sword at close quarters, caught by surprise, go for your dagger first, maybe ? ( Gladius also worn on the right for a right handed draw when in formation using a shield. Can't do that with a longer blade ).... |
Sure you can. Just put your hand between your flank and the grip, instead of on the outside. Give it a try!
Here's a video showing what I mean. (Some of his other videos are a little wonky, but I love this one.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94c88HfACfQ&feature=relmfu |
Nice video and I agree to a degree. With my 33" bladed Albion Tritonia I can just manage it and the sword used in the video seems to be somewhere between a 28" to a 30 " blade at a guess.
I tried the same thing with a one hander with a very long 40" blade and in that case it was a no ! ( Note hand between flank and the grip is the only way I would do it and not from the outside even with a dagger ).
Also in the clip he mentions 18" as the length of the gladius but I think one could find them from 20" to 24" and certainly any blade below 30" should be easy to draw on the right side by the right hand as shown in the video.
Oh, the sword I used is a Del Tin Sword of Marquardo Von Randeck DT 5146:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...on+Randeck
So I guess it depends on how long is " LONG ". 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Zach Luna
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | ...certainly any blade below 30" should be easy to draw on the right side by the right hand as shown in the video.
Oh, the sword I used is a Del Tin Sword of Marquardo Von Randeck DT 5146:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...on+Randeck
So I guess it depends on how long is " LONG ". |
Hahaha, yes indeed. My longest single-hander has a blade of only 32 and a quarter, but I can still manage the maneuver with a bastard sword that's a couple inches longer:
http://www.christianfletcher.com/Christian_Fl...ord.html#1
Though after a while the exercise becomes much less of a "can you?" question and much more of a "why on earth would you?" question. "Quick-draw" weapons seem to make more more sense as daggers.
To veer back on topic a bit, I do believe the gentleman in the Czech video had the best idea about how to face a swordsman unarmed:
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Gregory Alan Singer
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jun, 2011 12:50 am Post subject: |
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I have played with being under armed or unarmed vs sword with some success . my thoughts on it are that you must focus on harmonizing with your opponents movements. do not seek the attack but the opportunity to enter their range and control there sword elbow or hand.people often underestimate soft control they do not see it as an attack so they do not defend against it. getting sticky on the forearm can quickly even up the fight. just like any fight the specific match up of styles can make a huge difference. as a rule i would say if the techniques could defeat you if you had a sword not having one ain't going to help much
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