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Ahmad Tabari





Joined: 15 Jun 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 01 Jun, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Samuel Bena wrote:
Hope this helps somewhat as I'm not familiar with the primary sources though.

Yes I believe that may have been the incident I was thinking of. My memory seems to have mixed it with another incident. Thank you for sharing the passage.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 01 Jun, 2011 5:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahmad Tabari wrote:
But since we know that the Byzantines made use of both types of armour, it seems like a reasonable speculation that they would have incorporated lamellar as a supplement to mail. This makes even more sense given the fact that the armies of their Seljuk foes were mostly composed of horse archers. But again this is all speculation and not hard evidence.

How does it make sense? Mail is just as good against arrows, is more comfortable, and lighter than lamellar. The only reason you'd wear lamellar is if you didn't have access to mail. If you want more protection and have the means then you either get heavier mail or wear a second layer. Lamellar is a poor second choice.
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Ahmad Tabari





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PostPosted: Wed 01 Jun, 2011 5:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Ahmad Tabari wrote:
But since we know that the Byzantines made use of both types of armour, it seems like a reasonable speculation that they would have incorporated lamellar as a supplement to mail. This makes even more sense given the fact that the armies of their Seljuk foes were mostly composed of horse archers. But again this is all speculation and not hard evidence.

How does it make sense? Mail is just as good against arrows, is more comfortable, and lighter than lamellar. The only reason you'd wear lamellar is if you didn't have access to mail. If you want more protection and have the means then you either get heavier mail or wear a second layer. Lamellar is a poor second choice.

I agree that a double layer of mail would provide better overall protection than mail and leather lamellar. However, it must be taken into account that not everyone could afford to possess two mail coats. For those who already have a mail hauberk but cant afford to purchase another, then lamllar (particularly leather) seems like a very reasonable option. It would provide its wearer with additional protection against arrows without adding significant weight. For this reason I think it is very likely that the combination of mail and leather lamllar would have been popular (not among the amirs and princes but among moderately wealthy warriors).
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 01 Jun, 2011 10:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any leather armour that provides decent protection against weapon points will weigh more than mail or any other kind of metal armour and leather can cost a lot more in many cultures than people seem to think - especially in western Europe..
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 5:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As far as double mail goes... good luck figuring that one out everyone!


Dan,

Have you seen David Nicolle's article on the leather COPish armour used in the Middle East during the 13th? He seems to allude to it being more effective and cheaper than many armours in use there and that leather was less costly.

Now I am not really up on costs and such in that area but I thought it was something perhaps relating to this conversation.

RPM
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Sander Alsters




Location: Netherlands
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 5:59 am    Post subject: armour         Reply with quote

I always thought a piercing weapon such as an arrow could shatter the rings of mail. unless indeed in combination with padding or in a form as a khazaghand. A lammelar armour being of overlapping plates should provide a more solid front an arrow would not pierce or even deflect upon. What about the Iron lammelar armours interlinkt with iron or bronze wire. They found examples of those. Not sure of place and time though.
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Connor Ruebusch




Location: Cincinnati
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: armour         Reply with quote

Sander Alsters wrote:
I always thought a piercing weapon such as an arrow could shatter the rings of mail. unless indeed in combination with padding or in a form as a khazaghand. A lammelar armour being of overlapping plates should provide a more solid front an arrow would not pierce or even deflect upon. What about the Iron lammelar armours interlinkt with iron or bronze wire. They found examples of those. Not sure of place and time though.


Actually, I think you'll find that it's harder to pull apart a well-made ring of metal than it is to pierce through a thin piece. I'd assume it has something to do with tensile strength versus flexural strength.

Ex animo,

Connor
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Ahmad Tabari





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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 7:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Any leather armour that provides decent protection against weapon points will weigh more than mail or any other kind of metal armour and leather can cost a lot more in many cultures than people seem to think - especially in western Europe..

According to David Nicolle the regular price of a lamellar Jawshan was 10 dirhams (cost of two sheep in autumn). But I was really surprised to hear that leather cost more in western Europe.
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Ahmad Tabari





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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 8:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Have you seen David Nicolle's article on the leather COPish armour used in the Middle East during the 13th? He seems to allude to it being more effective and cheaper than many armours in use there and that leather was less costly.

I would be grateful if you posted the link for that article.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 12:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nicolle's compendium has plenty of examples of leather armour, including segmented leather. There is nothing to suggest that any of it was worn with mail.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 12:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahmad Tabari wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
Any leather armour that provides decent protection against weapon points will weigh more than mail or any other kind of metal armour and leather can cost a lot more in many cultures than people seem to think - especially in western Europe..

According to David Nicolle the regular price of a lamellar Jawshan was 10 dirhams (cost of two sheep in autumn). But I was really surprised to hear that leather cost more in western Europe.

More than what? I was only saying that it was more expensive than many think. The futher east you go, the more prevalent leather armour becomes.
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Sander Alsters




Location: Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 12:39 am    Post subject: armour         Reply with quote

Thanx Conner I looked it up!

I believe in that articel of Nicolle, he was talking about how much it costs in peace time, when at war the prices went up. I could be mistaken its bin a while since I read it.

Anyway, ok, apparently there is no evidence mail and lammelar was worn together. I have another question, why did the mongols and Iranians who had the posebility of wearing mail, prefer lammelar? Old depictions of the two batteling together depict the heavy cavalery wearing that armour.
O and, the mail veils hanging from helmets, you know leaving only holes for the eyes. I know it could scare an enemy not seeing your face but did it actually protect the head sufficient enough?
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Ahmad Tabari





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PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: armour         Reply with quote

Sander Alsters wrote:
Anyway, ok, apparently there is no evidence mail and lammelar was worn together.

There certainly is evidence of lamellar being worn over mail. On p.15 of David Nicolle's 'Saladin and the Saracens' there is a picture taken from the Syriac Gospel depicting a scene of Christ before the high priest. The guards in the that depiction are wearing lamellar over mail. The Gospel dates from 1220. Whether or not this was a common practice I dont know, but there is definitly proof of it.

Sander Alsters wrote:
why did the mongols and Iranians who had the posebility of wearing mail, prefer lammelar? Old depictions of the two batteling together depict the heavy cavalery wearing that armour.

I find that strange. The Illkhanid mongols certainly had access to mail and yet they still preferred to wear leather lamellar. I doubt the Mamluks complained about that as the the Mongols would have been vulnrable to their lances. Could it be possible that the infrastructure that once supported large scale mail manufacture in Iran was destroyed with the arrival of the Mongols in the 1220's?
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: armour         Reply with quote

Ahmad Tabari wrote:
Sander Alsters wrote:
Anyway, ok, apparently there is no evidence mail and lammelar was worn together.

There certainly is evidence of lamellar being worn over mail. On p.15 of David Nicolle's 'Saladin and the Saracens' there is a picture taken from the Syriac Gospel depicting a scene of Christ before the high priest. The guards in the that depiction are wearing lamellar over mail. The Gospel dates from 1220. Whether or not this was a common practice I dont know, but there is definitly proof of it.

How about posting the image?
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Ahmad Tabari





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PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: armour         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Ahmad Tabari wrote:
Sander Alsters wrote:
Anyway, ok, apparently there is no evidence mail and lammelar was worn together.

There certainly is evidence of lamellar being worn over mail. On p.15 of David Nicolle's 'Saladin and the Saracens' there is a picture taken from the Syriac Gospel depicting a scene of Christ before the high priest. The guards in the that depiction are wearing lamellar over mail. The Gospel dates from 1220. Whether or not this was a common practice I dont know, but there is definitly proof of it.

How about posting the image?

I would but unfortunately I dont have access to a scanner at the moment. But I will see if I can find it online

Edit: You can find the picture in this link. Scroll down to page 15

http://books.google.com/books?id=zl9QPt5X9UoC...mp;f=false
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 04 Jun, 2011 12:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I tried that before asking for a pic. Google Books only has a preview that doesn't include p.15.
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Ahmad Tabari





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PostPosted: Sat 04 Jun, 2011 1:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here it is


 Attachment: 143.54 KB
Syriac Gospel armour.jpg

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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 04 Jun, 2011 6:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The one in the middle is the only one who might be wearing this combination. It could be a few other things also. That is the problem with illustrations. They can all be interpreted many different ways.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sat 04 Jun, 2011 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There a few others in the picture in what looks more like some Byzantine armour. Very interesting. It might not be lamellar but some form of rigid to semi-rigid plates, perhaps as Nicolle relates, on the one central gent.

Still a likely show of some form of armour over mail.

RPM
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Ahmad Tabari





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PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun, 2011 12:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The armour does look a bit strange as their is no lacing to indicate multiple plates in each row.
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