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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,472

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul, 2011 10:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gary Teuscher wrote:
Quote:
plus saying that they had another layer of padding on top (to distinguish them from their descendents of earlier centuries, the klibinarioi) of that it doesnt say what kind of gambeson. i assume another epilorikion.


This is one reason you cannot use a computer game for any factual info. These "kataphractoi" do not seem to be historical at all based on the above info.

The Klibanophori were the heaviest Byzantine cavalry, a throwback in a way to Cataphracts of early centuries that were armoured in similar fashion.

Other contemporary cavalry and later cavalry were not armoured as heavily as the Klibanophori.

Now perhaps in the last centuries of Byzantium, certain foreign mercenaries were armoured as heavily and perhaps some of the native troops were as well, but there were certainly not many equipped in this fashion.

The Klibanophori were the last Byzantine "super heavies" to be employed in any large scale.


yes.. and no.. this a customised mod so its not creative assemblies unit descriptions

all unit descriptans are pretty much new, the descriptions of the varangiansfor example are extended.
the original total war unit descriptions are brief
these ones are very extensive, to the point that i have to take several screenshots to record the entire thing for units like the kataphracts and varangians, and the other byzantine units. lke the spathatoi and the proniarioi cavalrymen.

while i get the feeling their research isnt quite as extensive as dans or matthew amts in whatever period of history.
i think while OBVIOUSLY it should be taken with a grain of salt. especially since the peleykophoroi axementthe name given for the naturalised 'native' varangain guardsmen some of the men wield what are clearly duble bitted axes, (yes i know, i was concerned as well) and each bit is roughly 2/3 the size of a daneaxe head. this would be heavier, but not unmanageably so i dont think.

so yes its a game, is it as good as an archaeological info, no. do i think it gives a rough picture. yes. about as good as the osprey series and simialr books.which is likely where they got a fair bit of their info for the unit art as well since none i dont think of the units are the same as they were even ones like varangians, and mamlukes had completely different skins. and they look ALOT more realistic

so its a source, not the best source, theres of course alot better, but itswhat ive got for now.


as for the super heavies, it makes a point of mentioning in the unit description that in a fair sized expeditionary force, say 10,00 infantry, youd get 500 maybe 1000 of these super heavies. in other words that these were extremely rare.

what does the more updated info suggest regarding the armour of the most comtemporary variant of the kataphract at around the very late 12th C
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Gary Teuscher





Joined: 19 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul, 2011 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
as for the super heavies, it makes a point of mentioning in the unit description that in a fair sized expeditionary force, say 10,00 infantry, youd get 500 maybe 1000 of these super heavies. in other words that these were extremely rare.


Yeah, from what I have read, they would not have exceded much over 1000 total due to their high cost.
They also mention they were not very mobile, but apparently the horses were fully armoured as well. Probably fared well against turkish arrows, catching the horse archers was the problem Wink

Quote:
do i think it gives a rough picture. yes. about as good as the osprey series and simialr books.


Yeah, probably where they got lot of their info, just not even as good as them, as historical accuracy is even less important than "fun" is for a computer game.

Quote:
what does the more updated info suggest regarding the armour of the most comtemporary variant of the kataphract at around the very late 12th C


Everything I have read suggest the "kataphract" of the late 12th century was less well armoured than the Klibanophori, though equipment could prabably vary greatly among these kataphracts, though the Klibanophori seem to have been more standardized.
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