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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2011 6:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The use of the sword:

A variation on my original idea is that the use of hand armor might have altered the way one grips a sword. I like early medieval swords with short-handled grips and wide flat pommels because they work well with a hanshake grip, or rather easily transition between handshake and hammer grip. But this requires alot of tactile feedback from the hand. Perhaps this is somewhat lost with a mailed fist, even if the palm side is less encumbered. In that event there might best to just stick with the hammer grip, in which case the advantage of those older style grips is lost - why not take a longer grip and a wheel pommel?

Again I'm only speculating from lack of experience, and although I'm pushing this hand-armor point for the sake of argument, I do believe that weapon developments were shaped by multiple factors including those mentioned by others above. What interests me is the way weapons and armor might interact in un-obvious ways. It might be something warriors didn't even think about - they just assembled their kit and went with what felt comfortable.

Its up to us arm-chair academics to look back and try to analyze why they did what they did.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Jul, 2011 6:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The issue is mostly that know development of sword types does not match the adoption of mail, then plate gauntlets. So where as you idea could be plausible there is no direct or indirect evidence behind it and the chronology of both their development does not fit. Some places have been using s longer grip at the same time these shorter grips were in use but without gauntlets so even surrounding regions do not follow such a trend. As far as I can tell there is really no change in grip size that seem to be linked to this during the period plate gauntlets move in over mail mittens. So why try making something work that does not really have any historical backing? Seems worse than an up hill battle but near a vertical cliffside.

RPM
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Jul, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Almost all mail hand armour I have seen leaves the palm open.


That's what I thought. But what about the sides? Did the mail cover the back of the hand all the way down the sides so that, when you grip the sword, the edge of the mail is flush with the grip? Or did it only cover the back, leaving the sides of the finger exposed? If it covers the sides, that would widen the required grip I think.

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

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Posts: 1,903

PostPosted: Mon 04 Jul, 2011 4:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
The issue is mostly that know development of sword types does not match the adoption of mail, then plate gauntlets. So where as you idea could be plausible there is no direct or indirect evidence behind it and the chronology of both their development does not fit. Some places have been using s longer grip at the same time these shorter grips were in use but without gauntlets so even surrounding regions do not follow such a trend.


It would be that simple if there were only one factor determining grip length. But my guess is that there were a number of reasons. In studies that involve highly multi-factorial analysis, such as epidemiology, people get excited if a factor explains 1% of the variance of the sample - they never expect it to explain everything. I think this applies to weapons development.

Earlier you stated that adding a half of inch of handle can improve handling a long weapon. True for certain styles of gripping and pommel! But for other styles, shortening the handle by half an inch can improve balance! It's complicated man.

Randall Moffett wrote:
Seems worse than an up hill battle but near a vertical cliffside.


Thanks, you just described much of my carreer, at least the parts that turned out good, so maybe I'm on to something here! Happy
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