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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Sun 22 May, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: Sorry about email issue |
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| Eric Gregersen wrote: | | Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | I believe that Craig and the other very knowledgable folks of Ams & Armor may be an excellent option for you to consider to handle your project.
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/ |
I actually emailed them at the same time that I emailed John. John responded right away but I never heard back from the arms and armor people... it's been two weeks now or more... Perhaps I should have re-sent it, but I have other projects in mind for them in the future. |
Hi Eric
Someone pointed out your thread to me about not being able to get a hold of us. Sorry about that. I looked through my back emails and filters but did not find an email from you. You cam message me here as well, but if you like send another test email so I know it is on my end if there is a email issue.
Best Regards
Craig
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Eric G.
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| Posted: Sun 22 May, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Nathan,
Thanks. There are a lot of good pics on this post too. This will help with a more historically inspired sword too.
Craig,
Thanks. I've re-sent the email and PMed you as well. =)
Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
Knowledge applied is power.
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Eric G.
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| Posted: Sun 29 May, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, so I have taken Sean's advice and tried to find as many examples of T5 pommels that I can find. I must admit that I am not quite sure that I am spot on with what I have found, and so I was wondering (once again) if anyone here could lend their expert advice to my project.
Below is a single image in which I have compiled everything that I think might fit the bill for a T5. I am more sure about some, and less sure about others. If anyone can provide me with additional photographs/information on T5 pommels I would greatly appreciate it.
I have numbered these images for ease of reference.
Thanks again to all who post a reply. I really appreciate all the advice and feedback.
Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
Knowledge applied is power.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Eric G.
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | I must say: not one of those swords fits into your original specs/needs at all. |
You are right ... though I did include multiple cross possibilities with my first markup. I suppose that my list of requirements has changed as I have thought about this project and learned more about what is right and wrong historically. Right now I am expecting that the finished product will come out looking at something between 1 and 8 while still retaining the hollow ground blade.
I suppose I see only a fine line between the properties of a T3, T4, and T5 pommels. It seems to me that the T5 (if I am not mistaking, and someone please tell me if I am) start with a base about the same width as the grip, as almost an extension thereof. Beyond that they flare outwards into almost a spherical shape, taking sort of a transitional shape on the side of the base but being nearly perfectly round on the top. That is about what I see on examples 2, 5, 7, and 8 - if those are good examples of this type.
Here's one thing that I don't know that I fully understand. Perhaps someone could help out. It seems to me that there was a lot of variation with swords. Sure, some elements fit only in certain time periods (for example, you wouldn't find a type A pommel on something like this) but there do exist some very unique pieces out there. Take, for example, the Svante, re-created by Albion. Wasn't that a very unique piece that doesn't quite follow the rules? If a sword like that existed, what are the true lines of historical accuracy anyway? I remember reading a thread that debates this somewhere... mayhaps I shall look it up...
Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
Knowledge applied is power.
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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For easy reference, myArmoury.com has an illustrated summary of the Oakeshott typology, including pommel forms. 
T5 is longer than the T3, and indeed flares gradually out after starting as an extension of the grip shape. It's also more or less radially symmetrical in cross-section (ie. not flat like T1 or T2).
| Eric Gregersen wrote: | | Here's one thing that I don't know that I fully understand. Perhaps someone could help out. It seems to me that there was a lot of variation with swords. Sure, some elements fit only in certain time periods (for example, you wouldn't find a type A pommel on something like this) but there do exist some very unique pieces out there. Take, for example, the Svante, re-created by Albion. Wasn't that a very unique piece that doesn't quite follow the rules? If a sword like that existed, what are the true lines of historical accuracy anyway? I remember reading a thread that debates this somewhere... mayhaps I shall look it up... |
That's exactly the problem and the very source of the difficulty, here - there are no actual rules to follow. It's all just observed guidelines, and they're based on necessarily limited observation.
Reproducing a specific historical artefact is simple, in theory: you get exact measurement and material data, and build a new item to those specs. Easy! (It's actually anything but in practice, but let's stick to theory for the moment.  )
Recreating something in the style of a certain culture, historical period and geographical region is more complicated, because you have to study all the items and documents from and about similar items from that time and place to get a comprehensive understanding of what you're actually going for, and then you have to make a series of hopefully educated guesses to produce something that distinctly resembles but is not identical to any of the historical items. There's always some inevitable uncertainty about what is or is not outside historical parameters unless you stick to strictly copying actual existent items.
And in this case, you're starting with only a general idea of the style of sword you want - unless you narrow it down by time, place and/or cultural context, you have a huge range of potential reference material to study and assimilate. And without a fairly focused idea of what you're looking for, it's also hard to even find what relevant material there is. It's like trying to paint a picture when all you have is a blank canvas, except that here you can go objectively wrong.
Let me tell you, artists dread a blank canvas for a reason.
So my advice would be to pick a specific place and/or time (e.g. early 15th Century Venice), and start looking for references in that context. Narrowing things down helps a whole lot.
PS. This is why most of the designs I've drawn up in my time are either pure fantasy, or just historically inspired - my knowledge simply isn't in-depth enough to produce much that I could confidently call historically accurate.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Eric G.
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| Posted: Wed 01 Jun, 2011 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Mikko,
You have a lot of good points. I guess that when I started this project I thought that it would be much easier to make a historically accurate piece than it really is. I just saw the spotlight article, "Oakeshott: the man and his legacy" on page two where it says that a XVIIIa can have any pommel and any guard and thought it would be a piece of cake. I guess I'll just have to be diligent about this project, consider it a learning experience, and just see how closely I can get to the things I want.
Below are some detailed markups of my new design. It's pretty different from the other one (with the exception of the blade) and I am still welcoming the comments/criticisms/suggestions etc. of anyone who cares to post them.
I did these to scale as best as I could and got measurements (fairly accurate ones) using adobe illustrator.
I am not sure if this falls neatly into any category. The hilt is too long for a XVIIIa, hilt and blade are both too short for a XVIIIb and the blade may not be broad enough at the base for a XVIIIc. (All of this is according to the info I have picked up in the spotlight articles below) I used the sword that Peter Johnson used for Albion's "Principe" (an XVIIIc still in production) as one of my main inspirations, but I don't know if I can really consider this a XVIIIc or not. There are good specs on that sword given by Peter on a post in this site, and they are similar to this one. The spotlight article on XVIII's make mention that the guard for a 'c' says that the "cross often horizontally S-curved" and "pommel usually of wheel form" but neither of the Albion XVIIIc's have that feature, so I am hoping that this design could get a fairly high rating on the historical scale.
Once again, I appreciate your input. This project is still fluid, so I welcome the comments/criticisms/suggestions etc. of anyone who cares to post them.
Cheers to all of you!
Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
Knowledge applied is power.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 8:09 am Post subject: |
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If I just saw a drawing of that sword I'd say, without much reservation, that it's Northern European, 1475-1485. I see nothing there that looks anachronistic in shape or proportion. The only thing I might change about the design is to exclude the central risers. It's not wrong, necessarily, and largely a personal preference. I'm a big fan of these long, elegant bottle-shaped grips and I think the central risers do it no favors, aesthetically, and probably don't do much technically. My project from the same period uses this kind of grip, without a chappe. Your cross selection would typically not have a chappe, either. If it's an option, I'd suggest you test the grip with risers, mounted on the sword, before applying the leather wrap. You might not like the feel or look and it's a simple matter to remove them at that stage.
 Attachment: 58.01 KB
Attachment: 115.11 KB
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-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Weekend! Freedom!
To celebrate that, here's a quick rendition of how it might look without the three risers in the middle of the grip.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Eric G.
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Nathan, Sean, and Mikko,
Thank you so much for your help and suggestions. I think that I am pretty darn happy with this project at the moment.
Mikko, I want to thank you especially for taking the time to make this drawing. I have to say - I really like it. Your artistic skills are much better than mine. You also managed to get every nuance and detail that I had imagined with the pommel and hilt. It is all very nice. I will definitely be drooling over this until my real sword comes.
Thanks again =)
Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
Knowledge applied is power.
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Eric,
It seems you have arrived at a nice design. In looking at your draqing above I think that the point section would look nice if executed in a more direct line from the rest of the blade, without the strong "turning in" towards the point evident on the diagram.
Does this make sense?
Oh, and I appreciate the effort to stay away from ahistorical elements or combinations, there are enough half-historical, half-fantasy pieces out there.
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Eric G.
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | Hi Eric,
It seems you have arrived at a nice design. In looking at your draqing above I think that the point section would look nice if executed in a more direct line from the rest of the blade, without the strong "turning in" towards the point evident on the diagram.
Does this make sense? |
Do you mean in my drawings (not Mikkos since his blade is a little different) how the taper changes towards the point? Yeah, I have been noticing how that is a little bit much... I patterned it after the Albion Svante, (since I want mine to be hollow ground and I really admire this hollow ground blade) but my change in taper is a bit more than theirs. You are definitely right. I'll work on that.
| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | | Oh, and I appreciate the effort to stay away from ahistorical elements or combinations, there are enough half-historical, half-fantasy pieces out there. |
I can't even tell you how much I have stressed over keeping this away from ahistorical proportions and styles. For as much as I like this piece right now (and at the moment I am really pleased) I will still adjust if needs be.
Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
Knowledge applied is power.
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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So glad to hear you agree about the point section!
I have seen this kind of "2-stage" taper ruin many a design. On the Svante it looks great but that's a another beast altogether so can't neccessarily be used effectively on many designs.
Bravo to you for putting in so much effort to make your custom a striking piece.
Thought about any blackening/bluing of the hilt components? I could see it looking nice either way though.
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Eric G.
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| Posted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | So glad to hear you agree about the point section!
I have seen this kind of "2-stage" taper ruin many a design. On the Svante it looks great but that's a another beast altogether so can't neccessarily be used effectively on many designs.
Bravo to you for putting in so much effort to make your custom a striking piece.
Thought about any blackening/bluing of the hilt components? I could see it looking nice either way though. |
I really don't care for the deep dark color of metal that has been blued... I have noticed that sometimes some hilt components are a light pewter grey color and I do like that, but I don't know if that is a result of a slightly lighter bluing process or what... do you know? If not I'm sure John will.
Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
Knowledge applied is power.
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sat 04 Jun, 2011 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Eric Gregersen wrote: | | I really don't care for the deep dark color of metal that has been blued... I have noticed that sometimes some hilt components are a light pewter grey color and I do like that, but I don't know if that is a result of a slightly lighter bluing process or what... do you know? If not I'm sure John will. |
I think it's mostly just natural patina on non-stainless steel. The hilts on my Windlass pieces have all taken on that sort of color with handling and time, some parts more than others depending on the exact type of steel they're made of.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Sat 04 Jun, 2011 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Eric Gregersen wrote: |
I really don't care for the deep dark color of metal that has been blued... I have noticed that sometimes some hilt components are a light pewter grey color and I do like that, but I don't know if that is a result of a slightly lighter bluing process or what... do you know? If not I'm sure John will. |
If the hilt components are made of iron instead of mild steel the color will tend to be a bit darker with a bit more "character" to it.
The hilt components of one of my swords, a Duke, has been treated with vinegar and water and this causes overall tiny pitting and a darker color.
I find iron to be the absolute, most attractive choice for components but most makers don't use it.
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Eric G.
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| Posted: Sat 04 Jun, 2011 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: |
If the hilt components are made of iron instead of mild steel the color will tend to be a bit darker with a bit more "character" to it.
The hilt components of one of my swords, a Duke, has been treated with vinegar and water and this causes overall tiny pitting and a darker color.
I find iron to be the absolute, most attractive choice for components but most makers don't use it. |
John's website that he'll use any material requested =)
I like the idea of the hilt and pommel being a little darker than the blade. I also think that it would be cool to have this project being made out of 2 different materials, but would a sword from the late 15th century have an iron hilt and pommel? Also, isn't iron more dense than steel, meaning that this sword would be heavier if done with iron?
Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
Knowledge applied is power.
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Sat 04 Jun, 2011 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric Gregersen wrote: | | Jeremy V. Krause wrote: |
If the hilt components are made of iron instead of mild steel the color will tend to be a bit darker with a bit more "character" to it.
The hilt components of one of my swords, a Duke, has been treated with vinegar and water and this causes overall tiny pitting and a darker color.
I find iron to be the absolute, most attractive choice for components but most makers don't use it. |
John's website that he'll use any material requested =)
I like the idea of the hilt and pommel being a little darker than the blade. I also think that it would be cool to have this project being made out of 2 different materials, but would a sword from the late 15th century have an iron hilt and pommel? Also, isn't iron more dense than steel, meaning that this sword would be heavier if done with iron? |
Sure iron would be accurate for hilt components. Craftsman use mild steel because it has very similar properties to wrought iron. Craftsmen who use wrought iron either make it themselves or source it from old fences, boat chains, or other objects. I don't know when mild steel bagan to be used but I'd imagine it would be fairly recently- like post 1800 or later.
Historically, there would have been no reason to caburize iron to be used in hilt components.
Nowadays steel is common and iron is rare, the opposite is true historically.
There would be no difference in weight between mild steel and iron.
That would be cool if John would be able to produce your hilt in wrought; well, at least I think so. 
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