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Jonathan Blair
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 Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2011 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Glennan Carnie wrote: | Medieval clothing was not only different in cut, but was worn differently. People didn't wear different outfits for different occasions like we do today. People dressed in layers. There were three basic layers:
Underwear, or body linens. Everyone wore a shirt and breaches/braies, regardless of status. The linens were there to protect your outer layers of clothing from your sweat and dirt. Walking around in public in your underwear, then as now, was just not done.
Foundation garments. These are the basic clothes - something to cover the body and something to cover the legs. For the body it would be a doublet. For the legs hose were worn.
A point to not about doublets and tailoring: until very recently clothing was fitted to the 'natural waist' - that is, the point at which the body bends. For most men this is just below the ribcage; or about elbow height. The waistline of the doublet (not the peplum / skirt) should sit at the natural waist, NOT at the modern waist (at the hips).
This can be seen in period art, but is often misinterpreted since medieval artists tended to compress the distance between natural waist and groin (presumably to make the legs look even longer). Have a look at the image above for a great example.
Outer garments. The outer garments showed everyone who and what you were. The outer garments showed status. The more money you had the more sumptuous your outer garments were. Everyone had some sort of outer garment. Of course, it wasn't worn all the time; for example if you were doing hard physical labour, when you would strip to your foundation garments.
If you want to wear period clothing you should have underwear, foundation garments and an outer garment of some sort. What style those garments take depends on the time period: |
Think of it this way: today's gentleman in a business suit (as compared to a 14th century English gentleman). He wears a t-shirt and underwear (shirt and braies). On top of that, he wears a button down dress shirt and trousers (doublet and hosen). Then, a two or three button suit jacket (gown). If additional warmth is needed, he wears an overcoat (cloak or additional gown).
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Jonathan Blair
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| Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2011 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Zac Evans wrote: | | As for the OP, I would recommend getting a simple wool doublet with little or no puff in the sleeve. A well done man at arms kit looks a lot better than a poorly done knights kit. |
Actually, a man-at-arms by definition has armor head to toe. All knights were men-at-arms, but not all men-at-arms were knights as the term knight was a title dependent upon the ability to afford what the local lord demanded of his knights. However, there were well to do Yeomen and esquires who might not have been able to afford to equip several retainers, but could dress for war in full harness.
| Zac Evans wrote: | | Robert Hinds wrote: |
1: If it was really hot wouldn't someone have removed their gown if they were traveling or walking around town?
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1: No, not in the late 15th century. It's a different mentality. It would be equivalent to a Victorian gentleman walking around town in his shirt sleeves, without a jacket. Just not done. |
Also, wool came in different weights, just as it does today. Your doublet would be a lighter weight wool as compared to your gown. People dressed for the weather, additional layers added as needed if it were cold. But yes, unless strenuous or dirty work were to be done, people wore their three layers. If they were working in the fields, they might even strip to their shirt and braies.
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Robert Hinds
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| Posted: Fri 22 Apr, 2011 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Jonathan thanks for the business suit example.
I'm very glad I started this topic, I learned a lot. I would have been walking around in just a doublet and thinking I was being totally accurate. (this site and it's community has saved me from doing something similar so many times!) 
BTW, incase anyone is curious, I ended up ordering a WOOL mahoitred doublet from HE. Maybe in the future when I have a better job I'll replace it with a custom tailored one like Glennan suggested.
"Young knight, learn to love God and revere women; thus your honor will grow. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honor in wars." -Johannes Liechtenauer
"...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one..." Luke 22:36
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Mark T
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| Posted: Mon 25 Apr, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hi gents. Sorry to come to this discussion late. For Richard, and possibly Sean, the following quotes from the aformentioned Clothing guide - Men, by The Company of Saynte George (2010) might be useful, and confirm what many have already said.
Note that their introduction clearly states, though, that the guide is not 'an essay on 15th century male costume' and is more about what's relevant for their group. How that relates to an English knight, I'll leave for your further research!
| The Company of Saynte George / Mathieu Harlaut wrote: | | The doublet is the equivalent of the waistcoat in the later centuries. It is a foundation garment, with other pieces of clothing and armour worn over it ... Unless you are doing hard work or are in private, the doublet would be covered by a longer garment. (p. 14) |
| Quote: | The outer fabric should be woollen cloth ... Linen would be used to make arming - or hot weather - doublets. (p. 14)
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And this quote might be relevant to the discussion and images above of doublets not covered by coats/gowns:
| Quote: | | In our period separate hose are worn by peasants and by outcasts, like fools and executioners, in short, the poor and misfits ... we strongly encourage members to wear joined hose, unless they want to be considered outcasts. (p. 23) |
Note that in almost all the images in the Guide where we can see exposed doublets, and there's enough context to gauge, the wearers are either executioners, doing some kind of manual work, or doing martial training (all from one of Talhoffer's fechtbucher).
Note also that the existence - and time period - for the 'pourpoint' is debated. If you do a search over at The Armour Archive forum, I think you'll even find a thread where Gwen was wondering about their historical authenticity at all. I'm not sure what the latest on that debate is, but as for The Company of Saynte George's guide, p. 17 has a brief discussion: upshot is that they only allow them for people who wear jacks ('It is meant to be worn under the jack made of 25 to 30 layers of linen canvas to keep up the hose'), and that the jacks must be worn over them at all times. Given that jacks were used as standalone defense, or to support modest amounts of plate, would you be wearing a jack - and therefore a pourpoint - for a portrayal of an English knight? (Don't ask me; I'm just a south German mercenary!  )
Robert - have you got Embleton's The medieval soldier and Medieval military costume? If not, I think you'd really like them. My experience was that those two books (and days of reading through myA) have probably saved me hundreds, if not thousands, or dollars in rushing in to buy gear ... well worthwhile!
Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury
Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Robert Hinds
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| Posted: Tue 26 Apr, 2011 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Mark, the pourpoint that I have I'm going to use with my current billman kit, for which I wear a jack. As to their historical accuracy a garment like a pourpoint is described in Charles the XI's ordnances for his archers, so it's at least alright to wear one under a jack (like the Company of Saynte George's guide says).
And thanks for recomending those 2 books! I'll have to try and get those as they are both within my price range.
"Young knight, learn to love God and revere women; thus your honor will grow. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honor in wars." -Johannes Liechtenauer
"...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one..." Luke 22:36
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Mark T
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| Posted: Tue 26 Apr, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Robert,
Sorry if I'd misunderstood your use for the pourpoint. For the books, you might be able to pick them up cheaply secondhand at www.abebooks.com. I think you'll get a lot from them and really enjoy them!
Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury
Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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