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Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 4:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Myself (and other group members) have been using http://www.capapie.co.uk/ for a while now rather than GDFB.

We found overall better build quality, better customer service, and cheaper stuff (and no baggy sleeves!). Although there's usually a wait time and I'm not sure on Mark's delivery charges to the US (assuming he takes international orders).

He also offers an additional service (through another company) to tailor to your needs before shipping (eg if you want an integral coif/mufflers etc.)

Just be careful on sizing. His chest sizes really are at absolute full stretch, so go for the bigger one if you're unsure..
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Nadeem Ahmad




Location: Nottingham / Sheffield, UK
Joined: 14 Jun 2009

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the responses.

Ahmad - my persona within the re-enactment group is of a Sassanian cavalry. However, I don't think the group is too fussed with exact ring sizes and shape, so long as it's made up in an authentic way (rivetted / rivetted with solid links).

Although truth be told I hadn't considered options such as round section / flat section when I asked them. I think Get Dressed For Battle (the online shop, I don't know if it's the same as the GDFB company, which seems to have a separate website, just to confuse matters ...) has a rivetted round ring mail too, but without the solid rings.

There was a piece found at Dura Europos. I think it was 6 mm, my friend has the book so I will have to check with him what the exact specs were.

Thanks for the links. I will definitely consider Cap a Pie. Having not-baggy sleeves is definitely a good thing! Were medieval pieces really that black? Some old ones I've seen are more grey than black. I guess I have a lot to learn!
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Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some were blackened, some not.

The Morgan bible definately shows some in black mail (although they are the minority)
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nadeem Ahmad wrote:
I think Get Dressed For Battle (the online shop, I don't know if it's the same as the GDFB company, which seems to have a separate website, just to confuse matters ...)


No, they are two separate companies. They split in the past, much like Lutel.eu and Lutel Handicraft are now separate, or Revival.us and Revival Clothing. The online shop is Get Dressed For Battle (which sells much Ulfberth gear). GDFB (sometimes referred to as GDFB Global) is a supplier to e.g. Cas Hanwei, KoA and many other resellers.

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Ahmad Tabari





Joined: 15 Jun 2008

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 10:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nadeem Ahmad wrote:
Thanks for the responses.

Ahmad - my persona within the re-enactment group is of a Sassanian cavalry. However, I don't think the group is too fussed with exact ring sizes and shape, so long as it's made up in an authentic way (rivetted / rivetted with solid links).

Although truth be told I hadn't considered options such as round section / flat section when I asked them. I think Get Dressed For Battle (the online shop, I don't know if it's the same as the GDFB company, which seems to have a separate website, just to confuse matters ...) has a rivetted round ring mail too, but without the solid rings.

There was a piece found at Dura Europos. I think it was 6 mm, my friend has the book so I will have to check with him what the exact specs were.

Thanks for the links. I will definitely consider Cap a Pie. Having not-baggy sleeves is definitely a good thing! Were medieval pieces really that black? Some old ones I've seen are more grey than black. I guess I have a lot to learn!

I believe Get Dressed For Battle has round section riveted/solid mail with 6mm id. This would be ideal for an early Sassanian cavalryman. But unfortunately it is far too expensive.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nadeem Ahmad wrote:
There was a piece found at Dura Europos. I think it was 6 mm, my friend has the book so I will have to check with him what the exact specs were.

There were 35 separarate mail samples found at Dura Europos from complete shirts to helmet aventails and copper decorative links. See James' Dura Report pp116-120.

Outside diameters are as follows but many have too much oxidation to get accurate measurements
#379 8mm
#380 8-9mm
#381 10mm
#382 7-10mm
#383 8-9mm
#384 8mm
#385 7-8mm
#386 9mm
#387-#389 ???
#390 8-9mm
#391 9mm
#392 ???
#393 8mm
#394 ???
#395 ???
#396 8mm
#397 9mm
#398 7.5mm
#399 7.25mm
#400 6mm
#401 ???
#402 ???
#403 8mm
#404 4x8mm 1x7mm
#405 too corroded
#406 2x8.5 2x7.5
#407 8mm, 6-7mm
#408-#413 ???
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Nadeem Ahmad




Location: Nottingham / Sheffield, UK
Joined: 14 Jun 2009

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 4:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Dan. The internet only speaks of one Sassanian shirt found there. I will get the book. Didn't realise there were aventails as well. The best modern representation I suppose would be a 6 mm ID ring (or an 8 mm, for the very few larger pieces)

Thanks Ahmad. Yes, 800 GBP is too much to pay for a shirt. I was considering getting the starter rivetted mail (which is 8 mm, round links, no solid rings) but is much cheaper, and I'd be getting several squares of mail or their skirt to turn into an aventail as well.

Of course, the group leaders will have the final say as to how close I'd need to be to the historic excavated shirts regarding ring size and conformation. These are just my thoughts.

Of course, first I'd need to find out exactly what shape aventail I'd need. Taq-e-bostan shows a full face veil. The Parthian lancer at Dura might be a face veil, or it might be a face mask with a mail neck guard (or it might be nothing at all!). The Firuzabad cavalry don't appear to wearing aventails, and it's unclear whether they are wearing face masks or not. I've seen bits of mail on the helmets at the British Museum, but they are small fragments anyway.
Can anyone recommend me any other references or sources to find out the shape?

Does anyone know how the fit of the long-sleeved Ulfberth mail shirt is (I'll call the shirts from the Get Dressed For Battle UK shop "Ulfberth" to save confusion)>

Thanks Happy
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 4:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nadeem Ahmad wrote:
Thanks Dan. The internet only speaks of one Sassanian shirt found there.

There is one shirt that is decorated with a trident motiff (#379) so it is assumed that it is Sasanian but there were other fragments found in the same location that could also have been Sasanian.
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Mark Hale




Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: 15 Sep 2006

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jan, 2012 2:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian Robson wrote:
Some were blackened, some not.

The Morgan bible definately shows some in black mail (although they are the minority)


One thing to consider is that over time, ie with wear, the Black Maille dulls down to a grey finish. Having made maille from scratch, drawing wire, heating etc... you do end up with a black finish. Speaking to a number of curators on the subject, there seems to be a consensus that maille would have had a black finish originally. So one could argue, depending on how much money you had, would influence the degree to how black your maille was. More money = more staff = cleaner maille?

There are also indications that some maille was case hardened, with one example showing a change in the finish part way which could have been a result that section of maille having a delay in getting dunked in oil.
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,523

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

so for a viking/ rus/ byzantine era (10th century) kit, would it be more authentic to have flat, or round rings?
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 4:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Round. I think there is no evidence of flat rings before 14th century if I remember well.
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@Luka: Are you sure you're not confusing the shape of the rings with the shape of the rivets? For 10th century I'd say flat rings with round rivet heads.
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hm, I really think there was no flat rings (at least no evidence of them) in viking/norman period, but I'll have to check now...
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Nadeem Ahmad




Location: Nottingham / Sheffield, UK
Joined: 14 Jun 2009

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun 19 Feb, 2012 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The earliest flat rings I have seen are a piece attached to the Soghdian-Sassanian helmet (6th - 7th C) in the British Museum. I think there are other pieces of flat maille that correspond to the Turks in Central Asia and Ukraine - I know of a couple of Khazar pieces that appear to have square-section rings (which you could approximate with flat ones).

Not sure whether this would apply any further west than Ukraine/Crimea though ...
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Mark Hale




Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: 15 Sep 2006

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon 12 Mar, 2012 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I expect someone has already posted this but just in case.

http://www.actakonservering.se/acta/Ringbrynjehuva.html

Rough translation - "In April 2004, found intact in the tower room on Tofta church on Gotland. The hood is unique in view of its exceptionally well preserved and because of its original leather straps remain. The hood was carbon 14 to the 1200s."

www.capapie.co.uk
www.facebook.com/capapie
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