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William P
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 Posted: Sat 19 Nov, 2011 2:04 am Post subject: |
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another odd thing about the combat in skyrim...no spears
a viking game, this should be a no brainer, YEAH i know. the iconic weapons of the vikings are the sword and the axe, but even the most idiotic person whoes knowledge of history comes from hollywood, will still realise that people still spent plenty of time either thowing or stabbing at each other with spears. and considering that ater the sword and axe the spear was STILL the next most prized weapon by vikings, even among the rich ones (as im sure a few of you know. )
i really cant think of them having a particularly good excuse unless they add spears later.
me and the members of my university gaming club couldnt really find a good plausible explanation for that, or , at the same time, why crossbows wernt included
(the best thing i could come up with was A they already have bows, and B, like in assasins creed 1 they just didnt exist though the second assumption falls over completely when you realise its a game where you can wear almost a full harness of armour have back scabbards, horned helmets, 2 handed swords, double bitted axes plus wizardry, dwarves and dragons plus the multitude of mythical creatures strewen across the world
at this point. crossbows dont seem quite so far fetched
it also just might have been to make things less complex i.e it saves time and effort not having to work on a whole different class of weapons
( ive begun to notice that crossbows in a lot of RPG's. are often sadly neglected in favour of regular bows, runescape, ddemons souls, to name 2 for certain, you see only a couple of varients of crossbows plus 2-3 types of ammunition, but bows have a HUGE variety often a whole swathe of arrow types ranging often from wooden and bone tips, to various enchanted materials. plus a whole heap of those korean based, anime styled MMO's like FLYFF and ROSE and ragnarok online ignore them entirely, though they at least have a healthy supply of guns to make up for it, go figure)
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Tim M.
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| Posted: Sat 19 Nov, 2011 10:47 am Post subject: |
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As the old saying goes: Time is money. Unfortunately this applies to the situation with spears and crossbows I think. They notably use different animations whether it be using them in combat or their looks than the other weapons of the game, and thus unique ones would need to be made for them. This costs a lot of time and money when most people want to fight with swords, axes, and bows for weapons. Unfortunately this is sad bu true. Spears would also most likely be a bit difficult to make "flowing" in first person combat. Again this goes back to time and money where you are practically force to develop a form of weapon combat from the ground up. Plus: how in the world would they be able to carry the spear around unequipped? These are all problems that the design team decided would take just too much time and money to make it worth putting into the game. Todd stated that they wanted to focus primarily on the weapons that most people were going to play, and that spears, crossbows, and throwing weapons just didn't make the cut (no pun intended). Skyrim is packed with hundreds of hours of content, and while I would have liked to see spears as well, I can see where they are coming from. He did however hint they never rule things completely out and would love to do spears despite it being a priority issue, so keep your eyes out for DLC featuring spears.
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D. S. Smith
Location: Central CA Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Sat 19 Nov, 2011 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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To be honest, spear are not what I think most people associate with medieval/ fantasy age weapons. I believe the common perception is that spears are what the cannon fodder "grunts" use. Spears come to mind when you think of Roman or Greek times, but fantasy/ medieval are all about swords, axes, bows, and daggers.
I know this thought process isn't historically accurate, but I think it is still the far most common with the average game player or movie goer.
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Sat 19 Nov, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, spears would have been nice.
Actually attaching the quiver and bow to the characters person, rather than them hovering in the air, would be a big plus in my book as well.
I seem to be spending a great deal of time pick-pocketing, and stealing from folks homes anyway so. . . .
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Chris Artman
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| Posted: Sat 19 Nov, 2011 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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This game rocks.... its like crack to me... I have 92 hours in .... amazing. Playing it on a PC with 30 inch PC monitor with 2560 x 1600... surround sound turned up.... Game is just amazing.... scares the shit out of you... exploring is a lot of fun.
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Ian S LaSpina
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| Posted: Sat 19 Nov, 2011 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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I'd love to share my thoughts in this thread, but I'm too busy playing Skyrim... 
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 19 Nov, 2011 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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So how do the controls work as far as simulating real sword work ...... more or less if one actually has real HEMA experience ?
I wouldn't expect true capabilities to use master strokes in a fully controlled way and certainly being able to use fühlen at the bind would be impossible without some sense of pressure on one's sword feedback etc .....
But it would be nice if the parries could be chosen to make sense and be able to select what guards to use against specific attacks intelligently as opposed to quick and semie random button mashing that are the only ways to react in certain games.
So a description of the controls would be interesting by people also knowledgeable of real swordsmanship.
If it's fun and it feels like some real like fencing skills could be used to advantage, even if just a broad approximation of real techniques ?
At the very least movement in an out of measure and voiding + timing of parries and attacks would be good even if the details of the moves are sort of pre-programmed ( animated ) in ?
I like first person shooters like Halo and Ghost Recon ( The early versions of GR where more realistic in some ways than later versions where the option to switch from soldier to soldier was dropped, and patience and stealth dropped in favour of a more run and shoot approach i.e. more action replacing realistic tactics.  ) but I have not often played fighting games using hand held weapons so I'm curious about specifically if after a while one forgets that one is playing a game and the fights have some element of feeling real ?
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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William P
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2011 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | So how do the controls work as far as simulating real sword work ...... more or less if one actually has real HEMA experience ?
I wouldn't expect true capabilities to use master strokes in a fully controlled way and certainly being able to use fühlen at the bind would be impossible without some sense of pressure on one's sword feedback etc .....
But it would be nice if the parries could be chosen to make sense and be able to select what guards to use against specific attacks intelligently as opposed to quick and semie random button mashing that are the only ways to react in certain games.
So a description of the controls would be interesting by people also knowledgeable of real swordsmanship.
If it's fun and it feels like some real like fencing skills could be used to advantage, even if just a broad approximation of real techniques ?
At the very least movement in an out of measure and voiding + timing of parries and attacks would be good even if the details of the moves are sort of pre-programmed ( animated ) in ?
I like first person shooters like Halo and Ghost Recon ( The early versions of GR where more realistic in some ways than later versions where the option to switch from soldier to soldier was dropped, and patience and stealth dropped in favour of a more run and shoot approach i.e. more action replacing realistic tactics. ) but I have not often played fighting games using hand held weapons so I'm curious about specifically if after a while one forgets that one is playing a game and the fights have some element of feeling real ? |
then you might want to look at soul calibur, its a fighting game, of a style similar to tekken but instead of fists and feet, its swords, axes and daggers etc.
of course the design and even the use of the weapons isnt the best in terms of history.. weapons include, staff, chinese swords, nunchuks, sword/ aspis axe aspis, giant zweihander, giant axe, giant 2 handed mace. plus rapiers, a scythe, yoshimitsu.. (from tekken.
demons souls has REALLY good fighting systems.
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2011 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | So how do the controls work as far as simulating real sword work ...... more or less if one actually has real HEMA experience ?
I wouldn't expect true capabilities to use master strokes in a fully controlled way and certainly being able to use fühlen at the bind would be impossible without some sense of pressure on one's sword feedback etc .....
But it would be nice if the parries could be chosen to make sense and be able to select what guards to use against specific attacks intelligently as opposed to quick and semie random button mashing that are the only ways to react in certain games.
So a description of the controls would be interesting by people also knowledgeable of real swordsmanship.
If it's fun and it feels like some real like fencing skills could be used to advantage, even if just a broad approximation of real techniques ?
At the very least movement in an out of measure and voiding + timing of parries and attacks would be good even if the details of the moves are sort of pre-programmed ( animated ) in ?
I like first person shooters like Halo and Ghost Recon ( The early versions of GR where more realistic in some ways than later versions where the option to switch from soldier to soldier was dropped, and patience and stealth dropped in favour of a more run and shoot approach i.e. more action replacing realistic tactics. ) but I have not often played fighting games using hand held weapons so I'm curious about specifically if after a while one forgets that one is playing a game and the fights have some element of feeling real ? |
Oh no, it's not that type of game. Swings with weapons are pretty basic. Some one could also choose to use magic along with weapons or magic entirely.
For fans of Skyrim and other Elder Scrolls games, the thrill is in the vastness of the world and the open nature which you can play in it. The multi-faceted nature of the game sort of "sucks you in". I am not a huge fan of Massive Online Role-playing Games but I hear they have this quality also. I like single player games because, well, I don't care to socialize while I'm playing a game- just me.
You can "forge" weapons and armor, collect herbs and other stuff from the environment, chop wood, buy a house, buy a horse, collect bounty on bandits, Pick-pocket (personal favorite), craft potions, enchant weapons with magic, etc.
You can play as a good guy or kill everybody you meet. You can follow the story-line or just walk and explore.
Combat is one facet of the game, though a large one, but even with that the fighting is fairly simplistic. 
It seems to me that video games, in general, are not going to be a good or even passable fascimilie of real time combat with weapons. I just don't think it works in the medium.
Last edited by Jeremy V. Krause on Sun 20 Nov, 2011 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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D. S. Smith
Location: Central CA Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2011 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | So how do the controls work as far as simulating real sword work ...... more or less if one actually has real HEMA experience ?
I wouldn't expect true capabilities to use master strokes in a fully controlled way and certainly being able to use fühlen at the bind would be impossible without some sense of pressure on one's sword feedback etc .....
But it would be nice if the parries could be chosen to make sense and be able to select what guards to use against specific attacks intelligently as opposed to quick and semie random button mashing that are the only ways to react in certain games.
So a description of the controls would be interesting by people also knowledgeable of real swordsmanship.
If it's fun and it feels like some real like fencing skills could be used to advantage, even if just a broad approximation of real techniques ?
At the very least movement in an out of measure and voiding + timing of parries and attacks would be good even if the details of the moves are sort of pre-programmed ( animated ) in ?
I like first person shooters like Halo and Ghost Recon ( The early versions of GR where more realistic in some ways than later versions where the option to switch from soldier to soldier was dropped, and patience and stealth dropped in favour of a more run and shoot approach i.e. more action replacing realistic tactics. ) but I have not often played fighting games using hand held weapons so I'm curious about specifically if after a while one forgets that one is playing a game and the fights have some element of feeling real ? |
Oh no, it's not that type of game. Swings with weapons are pretty basic. Somewone would also choose to use magic along with weapons or magic entirely.
For fans of Skyrim and other Elder Scrolls games, the thrill is in the vastness of the world and the open nature which you can play in it. The multi-faceted nature of the game sort of "sucks you in". I am not a huge fan of Massive Online Role-playing Games but I hear they have this quality also. I like single player games because, well, I don't care to socialize while I'm playing a game- just me.
You can "forge" weapons and armor, collect herbs and other stuff from the environment, chop wood, buy a house, buy a horse, collect bounty on bandits, Pick-pocket (personal favorite), craft potions, enchant weapons with magic, etc.
You can play as a good guy or kill everybody you meet. You can follow the story-line or just walk and explore.
Combat is one facet of the game, though a large one, but even with that the fighting is fairly simplistic.
It seems to me that video games, in general, are not going to be a good or even passable fascimilie of real time combat with weapons. I just don't think it works in the medium. |
Jeremey describes the draw of games like Skyrim very well. I agree that the combat is rudimentary, but I've got to admit I'm a little impressed by it. It's the first game that I've played where you can actually block an incoming attack with a single or two-handed sword. Usually games just have smash, slash, and bash, with no thought to blocking. You can also vary the intensity of your strikes by how long you hold the attack button down. That adds a fun element as well. You can do amazing damage with a huge powerful 2 hand blow, but just as in real life, you leave yourself open to attack or dodge when you perform these large attacks. So from several aspects, I'm pretty darn impressed with the melee combat mechanics. Particularly for a game that doesn't focus on them.
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Josh S
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| Posted: Sun 20 Nov, 2011 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | So how do the controls work as far as simulating real sword work ...... more or less if one actually has real HEMA experience ?
I wouldn't expect true capabilities to use master strokes in a fully controlled way and certainly being able to use fühlen at the bind would be impossible without some sense of pressure on one's sword feedback etc .....
But it would be nice if the parries could be chosen to make sense and be able to select what guards to use against specific attacks intelligently as opposed to quick and semie random button mashing that are the only ways to react in certain games.
So a description of the controls would be interesting by people also knowledgeable of real swordsmanship.
If it's fun and it feels like some real like fencing skills could be used to advantage, even if just a broad approximation of real techniques ?
At the very least movement in an out of measure and voiding + timing of parries and attacks would be good even if the details of the moves are sort of pre-programmed ( animated ) in ?
I like first person shooters like Halo and Ghost Recon ( The early versions of GR where more realistic in some ways than later versions where the option to switch from soldier to soldier was dropped, and patience and stealth dropped in favour of a more run and shoot approach i.e. more action replacing realistic tactics. ) but I have not often played fighting games using hand held weapons so I'm curious about specifically if after a while one forgets that one is playing a game and the fights have some element of feeling real ? |
The only FPS game I've played that had any sort of realism and detail in the melee combat was Condemned 2: Bloodshot. Horror/survival genre so not based on ancient weapons at all, although there was one level that took place in a museum, which was quite fun! The old swords and hammers and such would break very quickly, though.
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D. S. Smith
Location: Central CA Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2011 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Here's a question for any of you guys that are higher level. I'm taking my time (and trying different classes) and my highest character is only level 9. So far, I have visited quite a few of the zones (at least major cities). I haven't found any areas so far with incredibly powerful monsters or NPC's. Is there a list of what zones are in which level ranges? Some of the zones I'm purposely holding off on because I want to visit them when I have better gear and skills. But I'm worried that when I finally go there the enemy will be level 8 and I'll be level 50 or so. Haha.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2011 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| D. S. Smith wrote: |
Jeremey describes the draw of games like Skyrim very well. I agree that the combat is rudimentary, but I've got to admit I'm a little impressed by it. It's the first game that I've played where you can actually block an incoming attack with a single or two-handed sword. Usually games just have smash, slash, and bash, with no thought to blocking. You can also vary the intensity of your strikes by how long you hold the attack button down. That adds a fun element as well. You can do amazing damage with a huge powerful 2 hand blow, but just as in real life, you leave yourself open to attack or dodge when you perform these large attacks. So from several aspects, I'm pretty darn impressed with the melee combat mechanics. Particularly for a game that doesn't focus on them. |
" It's the first game that I've played where you can actually block an incoming attack with a single or two-handed sword. Usually games just have smash, slash, and bash, with no thought to blocking. You can also vary the intensity of your strikes by how long you hold the attack button down. "
Well, that sounds like some level of control that can give one the feeling of being able to be tactical and give some illusion of one being in control of the fight ..... add in timing, measure and judgement a couple of parry choices can be enough to have fun and have somewhat of a realistic feel to it.
Actually too complex a control set-up just means tripping over ones fingers one might say when it becomes too difficult to put into action, in time, what one is intending to do !
The rest of the game seems like it might be interesting as a role playing game. maybe I'll just Google the game and I'll find more information about game play and the control set-up.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Chris Artman
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| Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2011 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| D. S. Smith wrote: | | Here's a question for any of you guys that are higher level. I'm taking my time (and trying different classes) and my highest character is only level 9. So far, I have visited quite a few of the zones (at least major cities). I haven't found any areas so far with incredibly powerful monsters or NPC's. Is there a list of what zones are in which level ranges? Some of the zones I'm purposely holding off on because I want to visit them when I have better gear and skills. But I'm worried that when I finally go there the enemy will be level 8 and I'll be level 50 or so. Haha. |
Don;t worry, the game scales up... They will get harder... got to level 40 and have 115 hours logged. Amazing!
Give your companion a lot of weapons and armor, staffs etc... to hold, they wear it and use it...
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D. S. Smith
Location: Central CA Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2011 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Artman wrote: |
Don;t worry, the game scales up... They will get harder... got to level 40 and have 115 hours logged. Amazing!
Give your companion a lot of weapons and armor, staffs etc... to hold, they wear it and use it... |
Thanks for the head's up! I haven't used a companion yet. To be honest, I'm much more of the solo type player anyways, so I'm going to see how far I can get without using the companions. But that is great news on it scaling up. 
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Christopher VaughnStrever
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| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2011 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Yea I just love how I was strolling around almost to my destination when a dragon flys by, attacks me in the open and as I am trying to kill the dragon a darn giant comes swinging at my head... so now I'm fighting the dragon and the giant.... I finally kill the dragon... and I run far enough away from the giant so that he is no longer after me.... and ANOTHER DARN dragon flys in and starts attacking me immediately... and then the stupid giant strolls on over and I am all like "darn I am going to die for sure" but then the giant starts killing the dragon for me, I toss a few arrows and afterwards the giant is wounded enough so that I can kill him... yay! all at level 16
So yea, I would say its getting harder along the way
Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher VaughnStrever wrote: | Yea I just love how I was strolling around almost to my destination when a dragon flys by, attacks me in the open and as I am trying to kill the dragon a darn giant comes swinging at my head... so now I'm fighting the dragon and the giant.... I finally kill the dragon... and I run far enough away from the giant so that he is no longer after me.... and ANOTHER DARN dragon flys in and starts attacking me immediately... and then the stupid giant strolls on over and I am all like "darn I am going to die for sure" but then the giant starts killing the dragon for me, I toss a few arrows and afterwards the giant is wounded enough so that I can kill him... yay! all at level 16
So yea, I would say its getting harder along the way |
Well if the Giant stopped attacking you after the fight could you just have thanked him sent him on his way ? Seems rather harsh/evil to kill him afterwards. 
Maybe the game doesn't give you that option ? 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Christopher VaughnStrever
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| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2011 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Yea, you just got to run enough to get away from him... but I needed a tusk from one of his pet mammoths (for a quest) and since he was almost dead I just killed him off.
Giants are weird because half of the time you can walk right up to them and they won't attack you.... and the other half will try to kill you every time they see you
Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Adam Bohnstengel
Location: Spring, TX Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Jean, in regards to realistic combat, Skyrim will get better soon. One of the great things about the Elder Scrolls games is that they take to modification very well, and if you head over to the tesnexus forums, they have a very strong mod community to download from. For Oblivion, there were several large combat system mods that completely changed the way fighting worked: adding kicks and throws, specific area damage, more weapons and combinations, a more adaptive AI that would analyze your attacks and could predict/block/counter them better if you were too repetitive, etc.
Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
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Brandt Giese
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2011 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Um we are talking about a video game with dragons right? It may not be historically correct but will none the less consume hundreds of hours of my time.
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