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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
Joined: 08 Sep 2004

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Thu 16 Sep, 2004 8:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Mike! How the hell are you? I was wondering what happened to you, last I heard you were running the joust for REC at the NY Ren Faire and then I lost track.

Sorry I didn't get a chance to come to Sonora (believe me I have take grief over that!), but I have been nursing a broken hand since the Dragon's Lair World Championships and been doing shows almost every weekend since and have not given it time to heal.

PM and give me a phone number, I'd really like to catch up and see what you have been up to.

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
Joined: 08 Sep 2004

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Thu 16 Sep, 2004 8:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Skipping my last personal post to Mike and getting back on subject -

Okay, stating that I have never been stunned does not mean that it doesn't happen. I know that my brother-in-arms Rod will tell you an entirely different story from last year's Dragon's Lair tournament. It really all depends on how you land.

At last year's Sonora Tournament, I went extra hard to try and take Shane Adams out of the saddle and, which usually happens when you try to hard, ended up putting myself on the ground. While I was not stunned, I apparently landed on a large rock that pretty much caved in my right elbow couter and I experienced "armour failure" as I blew a few straps. In battle, with a pretty much non-functioning right arm and pieces of armour that are no longer attached, I would pretty much be toast.

Weekend before last at the Lanzefest, Eric had me test cut with the Duke from horseback on the tatami, it was awesome and now we are talking about doing some further testing with various weapons on different pieces of plate and chain. (see the Off Topic - King's Champions thread).

Okay, I guess I should get back to work.

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,706

PostPosted: Thu 16 Sep, 2004 8:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lloyd,

Please post the results of your cutting tests in great detail. This would be of particular interest since these swords were used in that environment quite often, yet we see very little information about it. Maybe even a full length article for permanent inclusion in our features?

I'd also like to thank you, and the others, for discussing your experiences with jousting and mounted techniques. I've been on a horse exactly twice in my life, so I find these discussions particularly informative.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

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PostPosted: Sat 18 Sep, 2004 7:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, stay off the Computer for a few days, and all sorts of nifty stuff gets posted! Thank you, Gentlemen, for really good information! I guess the main point to be taken away from this entire thread is that indeed, Plate armour at least is very effective in helping to spread the impact of the ground flying up and hitting you! Among other things, that is.

For those interested, there was a nifty article in the San Francisco Chronical about the jousting competition in Sonora last weekend. The reporter has a different take on it than I would, but what the heck, still fun to read about!


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?fil...8NOS81.DTL


Oh, and Michael: per Portuguese saddles and girths... I remember!!! We won't let THAT one happen again soon! LOL! Now I need to ponder and digest all of the new information presented...

Cheers, and thanks again to all who are posting to this.

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Joseph C.




Location: Pensacola, Florida
Joined: 01 Jul 2004

Posts: 56

PostPosted: Thu 14 Oct, 2004 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just thought I’d mention that German Medieval Armies 1000 – 1300 by Christopher Gravett has a number of illustrations of the inside parts of shields. Some of the pictures of period manuscripts show the knights holding the reigns at the same time as their shield. There are a variety of strapping methods shown. Overall it is a good read too. It’s #310 in Osprey’s Men-At-Arms Series.
Hosea 4:6a
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
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Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Thu 14 Oct, 2004 1:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joseph, Thanks! I'll have to check that one out. I appreciate the update.

BTW, hey Michael, I bought a new horse, a half-draft! Now I just have to teach him how to joust, play Cavalry, and darned near everything else I want to do with him, LOL!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Shane Smith




Location: Virginia Beach
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
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Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun 17 Oct, 2004 3:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am an avid armoured longsword practitoner and in my experience,the notion of the awkward and inept fully armoured Knight is a myth.I can run in my harness and when I am thrown to the ground by a lever or grapple,I can "generally" easily roll out and regain my feet while remaining martially dangerous to my opponent(A critical consideration to be sure).I have fallen off a horse or two when I rode in Rodeos here in VA when I was a kid and I don't recall being knocked senseless although many who knew me would have claimed me witless before I took the stirrup. Here is an idea of what we are up to in ARMA when it comes to armoured work; http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html
Shane Smith
ARMA~ Virginia Beach
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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
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Posts: 382

PostPosted: Tue 28 Jul, 2009 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have stumbled across this thread and enjoyed the reading. I'll go ahead and chime in one of my experiances of late and hopefully we can get some more experiances in here.

I suited up and had my brother snap some good quality photo's of me in my armour. For a weapon, the only thing I have is a hatchet (not period or anything I know) However the hatchet is real and pretty darn tuff (I used it to hack off quite a few large tree branches) Well I wanted to see just how well my Armour would hold up.

I was wearing my cuisse and arming leggings and I had my brother strike me with the hatchet on my cuisse. He pulled his hand back pretty far and did not hold back at all. He hit quite hard. I did not even recieve a bruise from the sharp edge of the hatchet hitting the cuisse. The impact was loud and forcefull, leaving a scratch and a decent size dent in the armour. My brother was so sorry and I told him it was ok, it shows the armour has been broken in sort to speak.

Also my armour weighs in at 80lbs, I hae thrown myself to the ground and jumped right back up in ease. I found it interesting that the inital strength to get up was a bit hard, though as I got over that the armour seemed to actually help me roll to a standing postion. Further testing will need to be done.

Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Jason Daub




Location: Peace River, Alberta
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Reading list: 78 books

Posts: 162

PostPosted: Tue 28 Jul, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher,

This does not strike me as the best way to test armour. It also seems a very good way to become a terrible example in this thread http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ght=safety

'I saw young Harry, -with his bevor on,
His cuisses on his thighs, gallantly arm'd,-
Rise from the ground like feather'd Mercury,
And vaulted with such ease into his seat,
As if an angel dropp'd down from the clouds,
To turn and wind a fiery Pegasus,
And witch the world with noble horsemanship.'
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Jul, 2009 10:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason Daub wrote:
Christopher,

This does not strike me as the best way to test armour. It also seems a very good way to become a terrible example in this thread http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ght=safety


Yeah, sort of agree that it's not an example to follow but it's still a funny story since nobody got hurt, but even if the armour did it's job the axe could have slid / skated / ricocheted of the plate and hit a less well protected spot !

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon;
I have been wearing a shield on the shoulder quite a lot when figthing on foot, and have found that to have controll of it, the guige strap needs to be attatched so that it rests directly against your upper arm, rather than being attacthed at the front edge.
Some depiced shields also have a long strap running along the front edge, that gives extra controll, while alowing arm movement.
Some shields also have an horisontal strap for the upper arm, giving even more controll.

Alternative handgrips for use while hanging on the guige is also quite common. However, there is a large variety of designs in the historical material, indicating that the placement of straps was pretty much up to personal taste.



 Attachment: 13.19 KB
skjold2.jpg
My mid-13th century "cavalry" heater, based on a illustration from ca 1250

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 4:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've found getting tossed (in grappling - I don't do mounted work), etc in plate isn't all that much worse than the same throw unarmoured (though they tend to happen faster because of the ~3-6" increase in the height of your COG)... but you need to know how to take a fall in and out of armour. Depending on the harness, the ability to 'become round' that aids in safely rolling & falling while unarmoured can become very difficult.
AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 382

PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 5:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes I agree. not a good way to test it, though real. Since that test I have learned quite a bit more and have read over a few posts in that thread privously and other finds regarding those sorts of incidents. Of which is so true, and is the reason why I have not purchased a sword for myself yet (Will be blunted and Albion)

The incident did provide me with the question though, When knights went into battle or tournaments and recieved damage to their armour. Would they have just that damaged lame repaired/replaced or would have they went out and got a new pair made of whatever it was. The answer I have reasoned (Spectulation) If you had the money buy the best and replace it all, If you were a sort to say poor knight you would have got it repaired. Same sort of point with cars today, pay to fix the scratch or go so far as to replace the car logic would point you in the right direction (Logic being the money factor of course.)

And in no way am I advocating that anyone else try this. I took a chance and the chance proved no injury, however there could have been injury.

Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 5:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

well, there is plenty of armour that shows signs of modification and repair during its life. I think you may be underestimating how much this stuff cost 'back in the day'. I've heard a full custom fitted suit of plate from the 15th C like those you see in the famous armouries (usually for extremely wealthy nobility) equated cost-wise to a high end sports car or even a private plane in the modern day.
AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 8:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That was the price evaluation i was under. I also believe that The orgins of "keeping up with the jones" comes from the english knights that every time a new armour was seen on another knight, that was the new standard that the other knights tried to keep up with. I could totally be mistaken and if I am please correct me. that is what i hread a while ago. Must have been nice to be rich enough to have multiple sports cars- oh I mean suits of armour.
Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 8:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher VaughnStrever wrote:
That was the price evaluation i was under. I also believe that The orgins of "keeping up with the jones" comes from the english knights that every time a new armour was seen on another knight, that was the new standard that the other knights tried to keep up with. I could totally be mistaken and if I am please correct me. that is what i hread a while ago. Must have been nice to be rich enough to have multiple sports cars- oh I mean suits of armour.


can't comment on the origins of the statement, but there are a few well known examples (I've forgotten the names though) of english knights that literally went hungry trying to fufill the requirements of their station. Of course, the folks you see with several suits are usually kings and the like... so it is apparently good to be king Wink

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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Spotlight topics: 5
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Jul, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David E. Farrell wrote:
Christopher VaughnStrever wrote:
That was the price evaluation i was under. I also believe that The orgins of "keeping up with the jones" comes from the english knights that every time a new armour was seen on another knight, that was the new standard that the other knights tried to keep up with. I could totally be mistaken and if I am please correct me. that is what i hread a while ago. Must have been nice to be rich enough to have multiple sports cars- oh I mean suits of armour.


can't comment on the origins of the statement, but there are a few well known examples (I've forgotten the names though) of english knights that literally went hungry trying to fufill the requirements of their station. Of course, the folks you see with several suits are usually kings and the like... so it is apparently good to be king Wink


A bit why I think older armour might still have been in use much later than it's period of original popularity but that what we see in period art is what the rich would have used in most cases. ( At least in portraits of individual knights or high nobles, one might notice some older armour in large battle scenes and where the older armour being show worn by the " evil Saracens " or " Philistines " in Biblical art where contemporary armour would be used by the artists ).

A low status person: Mercenary, city militia, peasant revolts, soldiers with no social status reasons to " keep up with the Jones " would continue to use really old armour or mixes of old and new without worrying that they aesthetically don't look good together, or last year's model or even last century's model !? A knight, even a poor one, had to keep up with fashion to retain credibility and social status.

Oh, I think that if one got a piece of armour seriously damaged one might replace the entire piece by having a very similar or identical one made but not get a whole new suit unless very VERY rich ! The damaged but still serviceable armour might be gifted to a retainer who would get it fixed and wear it or sell it if it was too small or big to be adjusted to their size ?

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Michael MacLeod




Location: Regina
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Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu 30 Jul, 2009 1:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I saw this video on youtube and thought it fit perfectly with the discussion. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg [/url] though the horse was not at full gallop and the guy fell deliberately it does show that one can recover if they control the way they fall (though a blunt lance delivered full force to the chest probably makes it harder to do).

Also as many jousting professionals have checked this page where would you suggest a interested Canadian teenshould start?
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Ken B





Joined: 01 Aug 2009

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat 01 Aug, 2009 5:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now i have virtually no experience riding armored, but i can offer a bit of insight with one personal experience. I used to be quite the bowyer hobbyist and made a few horsebows (also called hornbows, composites) and in order to shoot whilst riding it was very important to have a horse that could be controlled by pressure applied by the heels. It could be challenging to shift weight, draw an arrow then knock and draw. Keeping balance in a corner was about shifting weight and not tightening legs because that would steer the horse off course. Although i should mention most well trained horse are observant enough to notice routine and when you shift your weight a certain way they are more likely to respond in ways that you have had them in the past. I imagine it would not be as much help in jousting, but it war where you need offense and defense i think it could help you avoid pikemen or obstacles and still be free to use your hands. It would be difficult to have a full calvery trained (horses and men) to be able to utilize hands free riding though, as well as saddles and recreations of saddles from the fifteen and sixteen hundreds would not lend them selves to large shifts in the saddle.
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David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sat 01 Aug, 2009 5:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I had an interesting experience at a demo the other night. I was in harness for the MC to discuss how armour changed the game of historical swordsmanship (and how it isn't like the movies). As part of this was the 'armour works!' demo. The MC (the head instructor) took a few swings at me with a blunt steel trainer (an albion lichtenauer, for reference), as well as thrusts and a a pommel strike to demonstrate that directly attacking the plate would not work very well. The cuts were all delivered with a quite a bit of force (certainly more than sufficient to have done me grave harm had I been unarmoured). Of course, all they did was make me go 'hey! I gotta polish that now!'. The head shot (he did warn me, kindly) rang my bell but was surprisingly only a slight annoyance. The crowd certainly didn't expect it, and were equally impressed when I was able to say it didn't hurt at all.

Now, *I* knew armour works before that. But I hadn't really had it demonstrated to me quite so 'viscerally'. It reminded me of how some police departments and the armed forces will demonstrate (in a very similar way) that gas masks work.

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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