The first Fechtschule in San Antonio, TX -- myArmoury.com

Anders Linnard · Posted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 9:27 am Post subject:

I'm thinking "lätt och konungen" refers to "lät också konungen..." Meaning also the king held a free fencing school each week.

You also missed "with all types of rapiers".

I was also confused about rännande but thought it could very well refer to jousting, just as Christian says. Ringränning for example refers to when you collect rings with your lance. Rännarebana is, from what I understand, a name for the area for horse sports and tournaments in Swedish, and they seem very close.

However I don't get the difference between the words rendende and rännande, possibly it means running in the first case and has the above meaning in the second. I am sure this text exists in modern translation somewhere, so it should be easy to find out. Or maybe we should simply ask Engström, he has studied far more than is healthy for a human brain.

/A

Roger Norling · Posted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 9:59 am Post subject:

Christian Henry Tobler · Posted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 10:26 am Post subject:

Aha! Have a look at this gentlemen: http://www.nightbringer.se/knight_rennen.html

Yours,

CHT

Roger Norling · Posted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 10:45 am Post subject:

Good stuff! Happy

I was actually already looking for the Peder Svart chronicles mentioned there. However, they are clearly propaganda and are a replacement for the chronicles by Olaus Petri which the king withdrew since he didn't like how he was portrayed.

Brahe's text is a continuation of Svart's chronicles and were published long after his death. Exacty when they were written is a bit unclear. He was already at the court in 1539 at the age of 19. After King Vasa's death in 1560 he was quite busy commanding troops in Scotland and Poland, and he was also the commanding officer in the sieges of Älvsborg and Bohus in 1565 here in Gothenburg.

In his chronicles he describes the fencing school as taking place in 1532 and it appears to be hard to tell when he wrote the text. I would guess somewhere before 1555, when Olaus Magni describes it in very similar words.

EDIT: Damn. I have to revise this. It appears as if Peder Swart was assigned to write the chronicles as late as in 1558. If so, it was he who was inspired by Olaus Magni, not vice versa. It just seemed more logical that Per Brahe was the original source since he was actually at the court, and Olaus was forced to leave the court in 1527, five years before the fencing school of 1532. Then, the Brahe quote is from somewhere between 1560-90. Some seem to date it to 1585, although I do not yet know on what grounds. I know for sure he was writing about the king in the 1550-60s

And yet an additional comment. Reading the full chronicle, it clearly is finalized after the King's death, since it describes events leading all the way up until his death. However, it is unclear when the first parts were written.

Christopher VaughnStrever · Posted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 2:10 pm Post subject:

As an update, our -->"fechtschule" hehe (I love the thread so far, very intriguing) Is now up to five members, seems like every week we have class a new member has joined us. Very good growth!

A link to our basic web page announcing what we do and our meet times are posted here....
http://freifechter.com/studygroup.cfm?studygroupid=11

Roger Norling · Posted: Fri 11 Mar, 2011 7:19 am Post subject:

No more real info regarding this topic. BUT, I just came across a really interesting book that I thought I'd share. It shows campus life at the University of Württemberg in 1589 and includes daily life with fencing, archery, tennis, lance practice and ball games. Really good stuff and cool to see that the Liechtenauer fencing was practiced at the Universities as well.

However, it is written in latin, so the word palaestra is used.

http://www.hroarr.com/manuals/other/Neyffer-J...i-1589.pdf

Scott Brown · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 12:03 pm Post subject:

Scott Brown · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 1:18 pm Post subject:

Firstly, super-kudos for taking the time to produce some genuine research into all this. Big nod, Roger! Happy

However, I do have some differences of opinion on how to interpret some of this data. Big surprise! Wink

Scott Brown · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 1:52 pm Post subject:

I don't have time for more in-depth blow-by-blows right now so just a few general comments...

First of all, I'm gonna' call BS on the claims that this was understood "way back when". It wasn't. I have personally been in the room when some of the authours here were teaching that fechtschule meant dojo/salle/etc. as late as '04 and '05. Beyond that, what are we supposed to believe??? Somehow everyone knew what it really meant but we all decided to go with our own meaning anyway? Get bloody real. What, was the goal to intentionally mislead future clubs? Gimme' a break. Worried

It's one thing to use the term at the time as an homage to the then understandings and frankly, that's commendable. But it's poppycock to come on now and try to claim "oh, I always knew this, doesn't everyone"? If that were true then why the heck did Christopher and co. inaccurately name their club? (And other clubs as well, not trying to single out Chris and the gang, just making the point) Was this your secret goal in inaccurately naming your clubs? To create some absurd HEMA myth so that only we few wizened elite would know it's true meaning and the rest of the world would be made to look the fool. LOL.

Sorry, but BS is BS and I smell BS....the rest of the world is not that gullible. Duh. Razz

Secondly, I reiterate, that these things need to be understood and used in context. There is nothing to support the term fechtschule/fäktskola being used as an organizational name in the 14-16th centuries. Heck, even the oldest example Roger put up from Sweden supports it being used as an "event" and that's as late as the mid-1500's.

I'll stand by ready to learn something new because I love doing so. So, why not explain why the Freifechter and Marxbruder didn't add "fechtschule" to their names? Go on then! Big Grin

If we are going to just go, "oh, well, at this one place in the outskirts of Halberstadt it was used one time in 1890 to indicate a club" then what exactly are we doing with HEMA research? Seriously? What's the point of doing any bloody research if folks are just going to ignore it and add their own meanings to the data anyway? Are all the guys doing bona-fide research just wasting their efforts?

I mean that. What's to separate the HEMA crowd from the SCA/Re-enactment/renn-faire/stage crowds in this case? Isn't the goal to get more accurate understandings of the processes themselves as well as the historical contexts in which they were developed and used?

Scott Brown · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject:

Christian Henry Tobler · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject:

Roger has presented quite convincing evidence that at least the Swedish word for fight school was used more broadly than just as a name for a fencing event.

Beyond that, I'm not sure how using the term, along with stating that its meaning has long been known, qualifies as disingenous:

1. Chris Amberger's "Secret History of the Sword" has been in print since 1998. I've owned a copy since, oh, around 2001. It's one of the classics of our genre and reading it doesn't qualify as 'research', but rather de rigeur.

2. Chris' 'interlude' article, read by just about everyone doing research, describes a 16th c. Fechtschule. That article was discussed quite a bit among the early WMA instructor pool.

3. It's simply not a stretch to use this word for an ongoing activity that includes elements of 2. above. Roger's research underscores such a usage.

I'm sure a number of others, using a combination of the above, along with the later use of the term, followed this line of reasoning.

Best regards,

Christian

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Anders Linnard · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 3:25 pm Post subject:

Well, I won't argue that I knew, because it's rather hard to prove. Either way, fechtschule is a term for an event, so using the German phrase is a bit strange. I agree with Scott on that one. The Swedish translation is in my view not strange at all however.

Regardless of this I did a quick google books search in regards to cathedral schools in Sweden and the word skola seems to have been in use in the middle ages for the actual buildings in Sweden. At least that's what I conclude from a very quick search.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jee6AAAAIAAJ...CCkQ6AEwAA

In this text there's a reference to an older text from the 1500s mentioning that the kids had to be taught in the school's attic (not 100% on the translation), due to lack of space. The word used for the building is however "skole".

Having said that, and after having teased Scott about it, I actually agree with him in regards to the German term as a name for a club.

I will look some more tomorrow, but I am off to bed for now.
/Anders

Christian Henry Tobler · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject:

Since there was no such thing as a 'fencing club' (guilds at the time weren't equivalent to what we do) in late medieval Germany, chosing a name for a club is an inherently an anachronistic process. And that's saying nothing of the fact that our organizations don't do what they did anyway, so it seems to me a lot of fuss over little.

Cheers,

Christian

Roger Norling · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject:

Thanks Scott!

Your posts are so massive that it is pretty hard to respond properly and I really don't have enough time right now. Sorry for rambling a bit below. It is an hour past midnight...

I'll try to sample my previous posts and place them in a better order and see if I can make a little sense.

Regarding the first use of fäktskola in Swedish, it was spelt "fichteschola" and referred to the weekly fencing school held at the court of Gustav Vasa. This appears to have been similarly described by Per Brahe, Olaus Magnus and Erici Petrus in the late 1500s.

I am not quite sure how to differ a regular fencing school in the modern sense from a weekly fichteschola held at the same place. It seems as if, at least in Sweden, the word was indeed used to describe rather regular events in one single location/building. It is just one example though, although described in three different texts.

However, it says little about how the word was used in Germany or earlier in the 1400s. But Sweden and Germany were quite close in so many ways, so I would expect a strong influence in how the word was interpreted in the 1500s.

This influence can also be seen in the example from Rikskansler Axel Oxenstierna's proposal from 1636 to start a "Fechtschola, en Ridschola och en Dantzeschola." Officially these buildings were called "excertiehus" which basically means "training halls". This is logical since all kinds of excercises were done there, not just fencing.

In 1653 a fencing master was hired at the University of Uppsala and in 1663 an excertiehus was built, where a fencing master, a dancing master and a Voltige master taught their students. In 1666 fencing was the most popular "class" with 29 students.
There also appears to have been a "dancing, riding and fencing school built around the 1670s at the University of Lund. It seems logical that it was described with the words above, although that still needs to be corroborated.

I am trying to find examples for the 1700s, but the sources I have speak mostly of the first occurences of the word and then later when it has gained the clearly wider meaning of a fencing system.
But, as previously mentioned, in latin, we have the word "Palaestra Suecana", the title of Diederich von Porath's manual of 1693 (although with the undertitle "Den Adeliga Fächtare-Konsten). Of course it is highly inspired by the Italians, so the latin makes sense.

In the 1800s there are clear references to the word used as a system; like the Italian, the French and the Ling fencing school. I can look up some for you if you want, but it doesn't seem necessary. It is pretty common knowledge.

I agree that you can't look to the roots and get a full appreciation for the meaning of a word at a single time frame, but at the same time I think it is important to see how the meanings change over time to understand the wider contexts. It is pretty clear that the meanings HAVE changed over time, as society changed. The issue is when the different changes happened in different regions and contexts, isn't it? And with that in mind to decide if we can use the term in a sense that it was used at a given time. For instance, perhaps it is OK to use the term fechtschulen to describe a place or a building if you study Meyer, but not Ringeck? Then again, many public fechtschulen took place in the late 1500s, which makes it interesting to compare to the fichteschola at the court of Gustav Vasa which took place in 1532, but were described 20 years later. To me it seems possible that word already had two meanings this early on. The singular word skola certainly was used with this meaning.

Finally, I think I basically agree with you Scott, but I do think it is possible that the meaning of the term expanded quite early on, possibly even in the early 1500s, starting from very temporary events taking place outdoors to describing the actual place where regular training took place, like the "fechtschule (or fechtboden) on Wurst Strasse" or the King's fichteschola and finally also describing a whole system.

And as I mentioned before, In Swedish, all three meanings are still attached to the word fäktskola and modern sports fencing clubs hold "fäktskolor" to teach the basics to beginners. I find that very interesting.

I could be wrong, but I do believe that there is still more research to be done here. Of course, some of you may already sit on that research... Happy

Christopher VaughnStrever · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject:

First of all, I agree all around. I want a clear understanding of the subject, in order that I may be able to accurately convey to others the reality of the topic at hand ( I bring this up at the beginning of each class, so that our students know whats what) Also understand that the remarks in this particular post are made, not to convey frustration, however they are in place to convey an applicable understanding.

With that aside, Take into context Scott, what you mentioned about the word "Gay" The original meaning still holds true to today, though exactly as you mentioned If you were to call someone gay "today" you would not be understood as meaning to convey that original definition. You would be considered to be understood as literally meaning that a guy likes guys; or that they act like a complete sissy.

The meaning of the word and subsequently the use of the word "Gay" has changed completely in just a few years. You dont walk around telling others "I'm gay! LA' La' la'" Rather you would walk around and say "I'm feeling wonderful! My goodness I'm in a good mood"

Also take into context any School today... You have said name such as my school that was called "Boone Elementary School"... "Rudder Middle School"... "Clark High School" The use of the words change with time. People associate a name, the type of school, and the word school all in the same title.

My personal view is that the context of fightschool today, is typically and widely understood by people (Even people that have no clue about WMA in any aspect)

Although Fechtschule may have very well been used differently back in the day, as "Gay" was used differently back in the day. The same change in terms apply when we use the word "Gay" today and as we use the term Fechtschule today. We are not teaching a subject about wma for the first time. We are trying to re-create, to re-learn what has been lost in wma. So were actually going through a Renaissance or a re-birth of the subject are we not? Thus, should we all include Renaissance in the actual name of our schools? They are schools aren't they? Where we go to learn something?

As I have stated in previous posts and this post, I teach anyone I speak with; the correct meaning and changes of the term Fechtschule (Thankfully with the understanding from all the info mentioned in this thread, thanks to everyone who has participated) even though I personally choose to keep the modern application of the term Fechtschule (See the above paragraphs conveying the term "gay", because that's why I think the word fechtschule is applicable for our type of schools.

I am not going to get religious, though take into the context a particular word in the Bible (If you like i'll send A lot of info of this subject word through PM's just ask, though as I said I am not going to get religious so I'll leave the particular word out of this thread) There are no vowels in a particular name, you cannot translate the name into any language properly and 100% accurately as It was spoken way back in those years it was originally used. The name has been translated to the very best ability all around. And the name has come to have a world wide universal understanding. Could you say that everyone in the world is wrong for not speaking the name in its original use? No you cannot, You simply cannot. The point here is that the original root words conveying fightschool change with time as this particular word in the bible, changed with time.

Calling someone stupid (And I agree with your meaning of the word stupid) that properly and accurately instructs (As I have mentioned over and over that I mention this very subject to my students and anyone I talk with), while applying a modern understanding of a word so that people who know nothing of the subject of what we learn, may be able to properly understand what we do before they even talk to our group..... I simply do not agree with you on this ground. And frankly take offense from your remarks.

Even by your own standards that you stated in a previous post that to completly understand these meanings one needs to travel to europe... well in the ecnomic streints and the fact that the poor get poorer and the rich get richer very few people can literally afford to make such a trip. And thus you revoke the right that you push upon others that they should immediatley adopt what you make mention of.

If you want to teach people what words mean and have them be appreciative and to learn from you, don't call the people you are teaching "stupid" it causes people to simply become upset with you and no matter what you say, and they could care less of anything you say from that point on (Even though I do take offense, I am not so irrational to no longer listen to what you have to say, please continue, I'll listen on)

Allen Foster · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 7:23 pm Post subject:

This thread has been informative full of impromtu research and unexpected twists. Chris I have met Scott and talked to him online on several occasions. Therefore, I think I can confidently say that he did not intend to offend you or myself while trying to make his point. Scott is very passionate "and informed" about the art but unfortunately communicating online is not the best way to get your ideas across as we are all aware. Anyways Scott's comments and Roger's persistent and excellent research tempered by Christian's and Ander's moderation and logic has made this a remarkable thread that has produced some good spirited learning. Who could have known that an offhand comment about the meaning of the word "fechtschule" would have turned into such a fascinating thread. I appreciate that you have let it unfold on your topic and been a good sport about it too.

Christopher VaughnStrever · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject:

That truly is the reality of this entire community, which makes for a great place. Without the various opinions and research made by so many here, I could never imagine myself being where I am in the endeavor of learning of history of this kind. Nor being able to enter wma. Without keeping an open mind and listening to all the ideas presented we would never learn. Well I as all here do wish t learn more and more and thankfully with the turn of the thread I have come to have a superior appreciation simply for the history and all the various involvement the simple term Fechtschule conveys. It truly is a bit mind blowing when we are able to learn something new in a subject we thought we already new a lot about!

Roger Norling · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2011 11:20 pm Post subject:

Just to add a little to my previous posts.

You also have to take this into contexts. These cities were really pretty small, even in the late 16th century. Only five German cities held more than 30,000 citizens in the 1500s. Nuremberg held about 40,000 within its city walls from what I understand. Today our cities are in general much larger and on top of that our communication channels are almost instantaneous even worldwide. Back in the day, there probably was little need to differentiate between different "clubs" since most towns only had one and it pretty much existed within the context of the small society of a single town. With time this changed, alongside of the changes in social and city structure.
Some sources mention that the fencers met weekly in the same spot, often a square, for the fechtschulen, usually on Sundays and were not really liked by the Church. There appears to have survived some documentation complaining about these meetings, both in Germany and England, and I would suspect in several other countries.

I believe we may be over-compensating a bit when we try to define the term by differentiating between highly regular, public and competetive training and regular competitions. In a sense, the training was always competetive and you were schooled through these meetings. However, this is not quite the same as the practice of the fencing guilds, although it is part of the wider context.

I think that the term event may give people the wrong associations as well, relating to something bigger, more unusual. Perhaps a gathering or meeting is more appropriate. Some of them were unusual, big, and with "special guests" from outside, but some were likely regular, smaller meetings with people who always came to these gatherings. And in relation to this I think it may be important to keep in mind that it is the unusual events that are the most written about even today, and even more so in the time period we discuss. So, when we look at the fechtschulen described in text it may well be that we mostly see the unusual ones and not the most common ones. This is hard to judge properly.

I also think there may be social issues here where different stratas like the nobles and the burghers and especially the craftsmen use different terms and with different meanings, but that is just a thought at this stage. I'll see if I can give it more substance later. It wouldn't surprise me if the fechstchulen of the nobles were quite different in meaning from that of the lower classes.

And the terms schirmschule, fechthaus, fechtboden are also terms that could use a little more investigation. The latter two obviously refer to the building and have a narrower meaning.

Furthermore, it may also be that the term "fechtschule" was used more generally, as a type of school dedicated to fencing, and not to a particular school. In a sense, this is a fourth meaning of the word, and doesn't require that it is used as a name for a particular school. As such, it may be possible to find the word used with this meaning in city maps, legal documents etc. I have seen a reference to this use, but I need to look deeper, when I can find some time.

As a sidenote, I have an album on Facebook with most of the images of "fechtschulen" that I have stored:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?id=10000088...;aid=37520