[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi Christopher,

As Bill Grandy notes, Fechtschule is a proper term for a fight school in the 18th c. and later. Scott's suggestion of the 'e' added to Ritterlich[e] is good - I'd recommend that.

I'm not aware of 'Schirmschule" being a period term; it might be an extrapolation. The 15th c. master Paulus Kal is referred to as a "Schirmmaister" - a "master of defense". "Schirm" is cognate with our English word "skirmish". (A similar relationship leads to the word 'Escrima' elsewhere).

Beyond that, the use of the word "Schule" is almost certainly layered with meaning, even with regards to the public fight events. Such activities both 'school' the participants (fighting, particularly friendly fighting, is training), and the audience, who learn of, and about, the art.

Strictly speaking, Fechtschule refers to an event in the late middle ages, not a building. But since your school will exist likely independent of a permanent facility, I think that's just fine.

Good luck to you in your endeavor!!

Christian

[Scott Brown]

[Roger Norling]

Just a small note on Swedish "fäktskola". I appologize in advance for stating obvious things sometimes.

It seems to me, after having checked some references, that the word was indeed used "historically "in Sweden at least up until the 19th century, with the meaning of a more fixed training "organisation". If it refers more to the building or the "club" is hard to tell, but it seems likely and probably varied.
In the 19th century it certainly appears to sometimes refer to the whole system, just as the word palestra was used in the 1693 manual by Diederich von Porath; Palaestra Suecana. And Palestra too could refer to the place or building.

And as early as in the 16th century, Swedish King Gustav Vasa also arranged a weekly "fri fäktskola" for the nobles, but I will have to check for more references on that.

The word skola is of course derived from the latin "scho'la" and Greek "skhola", with the meaning "time free from manual labour, dedicated to mental or spiritual work".

So, it seems to me that the meaning has shifted back and forth. Originally it probably related to a temporary or regular gathering (compare to a shoal or school of fish), later became attached to the location and/or building (just as most modern Swedish schools are named after the place where they are located) and later even attached to a whole system. And there is probably some overlap like with scholastics and scholasticus in the Middle Ages.

No modern Swedish sports fencing club uses the term skola, though. This is solely used by the HEMA clubs. The only exception is when sports fencing clubs (and others) arrange a shorter course to introduce new members in the basics.

So in a sense, the word still has all three meanings in Swedish today; a temporary gathering, a place/building for learning or a system for learning.

To me, it sounds reasonable, with the modern and shifting use of the term skola to use it in Swedish and likely also in German. It ought to work well in English as well. But then again, I have no problem with the term "federschwert" so I guess I am a HEMA liberal.

Fencing, fechten and fäktning is another matter, since the meaning has been circumcised quite severely.

Anyhow, good luck with the new club!

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Thanks for this Roger - very interesting stuff!

All the best,

Christian

[Allen Foster]

[Roger Norling]

[Christopher VaughnStrever]

Yes, thanks very much for all the info everyone. The broader understanding we all have helps us teach and instruct properly; in the long run.

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi again Roger,

Do you have any suspicions of "fäktskola" appearing earlier in Sweden, perhaps in the 15th century? I don't know of any references (at least offhand) of the German 'Fechtschule' appearing before 1500, so I've wondered how old the term is at all.

Yours,

Christian

[Roger Norling]

As far as I know, Gustav Vasa's fäktskola is the first known Swedish fäktskola. I have to check if the term "fäktskola" was really used though. I have seen a reference to this being mentioned in Olaus Magni's "History of the Nordic People" of 1555, but it was written in latin and I would assume he used the term palaestra. However, that certainly doesn't mean that Gustav Vasa called it palaestra. He was rather close to the Germans and had several German swords and hired landsknechts, so I would think he himself used the term fechtschola.

As a sidenote, in 1626, rikskansler Johan Skytte started the Collegium Skyttianum, which was inspired by the Collegium Illustre in Tübingen, and trained young nobles in fencing, as well as in many other noble arts and skills. Due to the plague, this only lasted until 1632. However, in 1636 rikskansler Axel Oxenstierna proposed to start a "Fechtschola, en Ridschola och en Dantzeschola”.

And in the mid 17th century, several universities hired fencing and dancing masters. The Poraths were well known, both in Riga, Åbo and Lund, as well as in the rest of Europe.

I'll see if I can find any proper references to early use of the term "fäktskola". I'll ask a couple of Swedish researchers and see if they have any idea.

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi Roger!

This is excellent information, and all the more so for me because of the connection to Gustav Vasa, who I know at least a bit about. In addition to visiting a Danish castle this past May where he was held prisoner (and escaped), I have friends who were members of the Vasa Order of America, which is (as you likely know) a Swedish-American fellowship.

What really caught my attention, having known little of the history of fencing in Sweden, is that we once again see the connection between early fencing schools and the very highest eschelons of society.

Great stuff - thank you!!

Yours,

Christian

[Roger Norling]

Thanks. I'll get back here as soon as I know more. Meanwhile, for any who missed it earlier. Here is an article on his rappier: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_vasa.html

And here is the sword he was buried with: http://www.raa.se/cms/extern/aktuellt/nyheter...kyrka.html

Btw, I appologize to the OP for keeping this off-topic. Perhaps it should be broken off into a new thread?

[Christopher VaughnStrever]

Personally I think the topic is very good for the current thread. Really the term applies and is beneficial to our group and any group coming about or around

[Roger Norling]

Fine! Then I'll keep posting here.

And just in case anyone who doesn't speak Swedish is searching for the word "skola". It can also be used as an auxiliary verb with the meaning of shall and also with the meaning wish , want and even rest and entertainment if we look to the Greek or lesson if we look to the latin. Parts of these meanings are often found in the Germanic languages. Just for clarification.

In Denmark there is a monestary called Vitsköl that was inaugurated as Vitae Schola (life school) in 1158, so it seems as if the word was used quite early on in Scandinavia. However, it is hard to tell if this was an adaption of the name village name "Vitskowel" or vice versa.

[Axel Pettersson]

Hello again guys, I just spoke to Anders Linnard who is one of the founders of the first " X Historical fencing Schools (in Gothenburg) some time in the first years of this millennia, and apparently they were aware of the meaning of fechtshule as a term for an event rather than a school but still chose the name "fäktskola" as an homage to those old events. As Roger has pointed out it works in Swedish as a word for "fencing school" aswell, so it was pretty appropriate whichever way you look at it.

At the time I was living in another town and trained with ARMA, we only knew of Anders crew as "those Gothenburg guys".

[Anders Linnard]

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hello Axel & Anders,

I was surprised to find this an issue too. I read Chris Amberger's work concerning this back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. One hardly need visit Europe to know this (though I heartily recommend they do for other reasons).

I think part of this involves modern perceptions of what a 'school' is. We tend to think of a 'place', but through most of history it's more of a concept - the idea of schooling. With that in mind, your use of the term, or Christopher's, or mine for that matter, is apt.

Cheers,

Christian

[Allen Foster]

[Anders Linnard]

[Roger Norling]

Christian. The currently oldest Swedish reference I have found thus far is from Per Brahes chronicle describing the events of 1532. Probably written somewhere between 1540-1550. It reads:

"--- Lätt och konungen huar weku hålla ehn frij fichteschola, höltt och then wnge adelen ther thill, att the måtte läre och öffua sig wdj den konst wthi allahånda wärier, så och med rendande och springande; ther hade och konungen sielff lust thill med att öffue sig wdj. Stundom motte the och öffua sig wdi ridderliga öffning wdj theres harnisk och fulla rustning, stundom med rännande och med stäckande."

I'll try to translate it, but there may be one or two oddities here. It's been a while since I read 16th cent Swedish and parts are ambiguous.

Roughly, the meaning is

"--- Easily and the king held a free fencing school each week for the young nobles so that they would learn and practice the art of fencing and also running and leaping. In this the king himself had desire to practice. At times they also had to train in the knightly practices in their harnisch and full armour, at times with running and thrusting."

This is probably what Olaus Magni based his latin text on.

EDIT: I may have to adjust my comments above. There is some confusion regarding these texts and when they were written and published. Those two may be quite separate and seem to be confused quite often.

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi Roger!

I'll bet that "rännande" and "stäckande" are equivalents to the types of German jousts - "Rennen" and "Gestech". The cool thing here then is that we have a Fechtschule, held by a king, which included jousting.

Cheers,

Christian