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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,968

PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Continuing on that theme of red backgrounds are the dealer pictures of my baby Berger.. Continuing my penchant for pairs of things, this one was acquired earlier than the Ruble spadroon but knew if I hesitated, this one would be gone. The Berger name is penned as mysterious by some of the book authors and figured him a Parisian but it turns the family worked out of the Alsace area. more specifically Strasbourg. Satisfying one lust for blue and gilt, the comical little eagle calling "Polly Want a Country" is continuing amusement as the morning sun lights this one up for me.








Here with the spadroon posted above.




Not long ago, came along on the 'bay a sibling Berger of an eagle hilted blade with virtually the same blade blue and gilt Polly eagle also with the E Plurubus Unum motto. Notice the very English (Ketland type at first glance....not) looking eaglehead but continental all the way. No, I didn't adopt it but believe me, there are another pair of eagles I'd buy in a heartbeat right now and even more that I see out there at bargain basement pricing right now. My head hurts from my leaky pockets as it is. These Berger decorated blades also show up in the Medicus Collection book.





Cheers

GC


Last edited by Glen A Cleeton on Thu 10 Feb, 2011 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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David Wilson




Location: In a van down by the river
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 802

PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 6:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom R. wrote:
This one is an interesting Napoleonic period sword and was a bit puzzling for awhile..... but due to assistance from multiple folks at SFI a couple of years back I think I now know more about it. It is a Bavarian Guard sword from 1808/09, The Bavarian Guards were attached to General Wrede during the 1808-1812 period. The sword is a French blade mounted in Bavaria sometime just prior to the battle of Wagram in 1809 (there are stamps on the blade for 1808 and on the hilt for 1809). Bavaria allied itself with France in 1805. Napoleon destroyed both the Prussian and Austrian armies in a campaign that ended in the surrender of the Austrians in December 1805 after the battle of Austerlitz. The German states of Bavaria , Baden and Wurttemberg who had allied with the French were then rewarded with independence of a sort. Bavaria gained kingdom status and several territories including Tyrol. In the campaigns that followed Bavaria acted much more like a weaker partner with France rather than a vassal state or ally. In the 1809 campaign Bavarian troops saw initially defeat with the French at Aspern-Essling but ultimately victory at Wagram. In 1812 Bavaria supplied the Grande Armee with VI Corps for the Russian campaign and Bavarian cavalry fought at the battle of Borodino. Following the disastrous result of the Russian campaign Bavaria decided to desert Napoleon's cause just before the battle of Leipzig. The Bavarians, fighting with the Allies this time, tried to cut off the French armies' retreat but failed to do so at the battle of Hanau. In 1814 the Tyrol went back to Austria, and Salzburg was also handed back in 1815. I like to to think this sword could have been at Wagram and possibly the Russian campaign of 1812.

The basket is based on the classic D-guard which has a rather large and pronounced quillon. The basket is symmetrical and contains three rounded bars on each side which connect the knuckleguard to the front guard. The bars dovetail snugly (almost imperceptibly) into triangular cutouts on the knuckleguard without any welding at all. There is a steel backstrap and pommel cap. The knuckle is keyed into the pommel cap. The grip looks to be of horn or a hardwood with some light wear to a finely checkered grip. There is also a large iron ferrule holding the grip in place. The overall construction of the hilt is quite elaborate. It is a great handling sword !


Fascinating. I purchased an identical blade (unmounted) off eBay some years ago. The blade had a nice springy temper and took an edge pretty easily (it may never have been sharpened before). I had it mounted with a Glasgow-style basket. Historically correct? Maybe not, but a nice sword anyway. Anyway, I was wondering where that blade came from....

David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe

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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 6:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No 19th century sword thread would be complete without the 1845 French Infantry Officer Sword. This is one of the most beautiful fighting swords of the mid-19th century. The U.S. modeled their Infantry Officer version after it and I wouldn't be suprised if some Confederate Officers carried this same weapon.
It came with a nice metal scabbard. I actually prefer the horn grip without the wire. It looks just a little plainer and handsomer that way. Lovely quill-point tip as well. It has a nice compact balance and handles like a long boarding sword. Dated 1855.



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inkothemgard!
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Thu 10 Feb, 2011 6:47 pm    Post subject: British Pattern 1821 Light Cavalry Officers' Swords         Reply with quote

I sold this British Pattern 1821 Light Cavalry Officer's Sword several years ago, but I think it illustrates the transition from Georgian style and design to Victorian so I will go ahead and post it. It is not maker marker and the blade decoration is standard for the period 1821-1845, with this example being very early Victorian. The 35" pipe back blade is sparingly decorated with scrolling foliage and VR cypher, and sports a very nice yelman.







The previous example can be compared to this later P821 LC Officer's Sword made by Wilkinson in 1869. The proof book entry for this sword states that it has a "medium light cavalry" blade. This was still a fighting weight blade, but it is not quite as wide as the regulation weight blade. The sharpened blade measures 34 1/2" long and is 1 18" wide at the ricasso. The obvious difference between this sword and the previous sword is the blade design. By 1845 the pipe back blade was replaced with a fullered "Wilkinson" style blade--the default blade style for swords of the British Army until replaced in 1892 for the infantry and 1912 for the cavalry. The hilt form is almost the same as that of the earlier sword, but the quillon is smaller, the grip is longer, the back piece has a chequered thumb rest and the pommel is less prominent and is also chequered. This example was owned by an officer of the 15th Hussars who served in the 2nd Anglo-Afghan War of 1878-80.









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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 11 Feb, 2011 5:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen,
Thank you for posting. Your Berger B&G saber is fantastic--I love that parrot, er, eagle. I am looking forward to seeing more of your collection. I hope you will post your M1854 dragoon sword. It is a beast!

Morgan,
Does your M1845 show any signs of sharpening? French infantry swords seem to have had a wide variety of blade designs. Rob O'Reilly posted a really nice one on the second page of this thread.

Jonathan
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,968

PostPosted: Fri 11 Feb, 2011 7:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The French 1854 is hard to put in perspective without comparing to other swords. That leads to my basic pairing once again with a generic German made "1822"/"1840" "wristbreaker" Yankee pestering must have been Confederate light/heavy cavalry saber/sabre Laughing Out Loud The Dragon has a horn grip, which would have made it an officer's version while the sabre has a smooth wood grip wound ith cord then covered with leather and then bound with the wire. the Ames manufactured 1840 sabres and the later lighter ACW sabers were most often grooved wood then eather and wire. The light vs heavy American versions reflect the Fench swords withe the French officer sabre humped grip is what will most often show up on the lighter Amreican market swords.






The 1854 Dragon is the shortest of three flavors of those, with the Carabiniers model another inch or so longer overall. Speaking of massive, there was also a bayonet/lance version that never really went far in favor.




While we are on that type of less common, here is a Dahlgren bayonet bowie. Not mine but I may go the reproduction route to afford one for show and tell tables. These were made up by Ames during the American Civil War.



Still of this period are a couple of 1860s timeline spadroons. One an Ames 1864 dated 1840 model NCO sword. The Short one an oddball sold through Roby likely after the ACW but not much later than that. It really is that much shorter by whatever design and has some hard to display etchings. These shorties were either fraternal, militia or cadet targeted. An oddball for sure but another that shows up in the Medicus collection book.





My musician pattern of those brass hilts is a quite late manufacture, as it is stamped "Germany" As a good bit later than the ACW, this was another bargain basement find.



I'll still get some eagles up at some point and a couple of more 1854 pictures are attached below along with the precursor of the 1822 sabres, the French 1816 pattern (I am twitching to buy this one but will not point out where it is cheap and mislabeled).

Cheers

GC



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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 11 Feb, 2011 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My M.1829 French Mounted Artillery Sabre. The pattern for the U.S. 1840 Mounted Art. Sword. To my mind it is a classic sabre pattern. Very simple, yet very beautiful. The brass guard makes a single graceful swoop from quillon to knuckle bow.. Very sturdy too and balanced for that good ol' horsemans swing. It would strike a devastating blow at an opponent. How much combat mounted artillery/caisson swords actually saw though is unknown to me. It is a nice companion piece to my M.1845 French Infantry Officer sword. Viva Napoleon the III!


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inkothemgard!


Last edited by Morgan Butler on Fri 11 Feb, 2011 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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Norman McCormick





Joined: 17 Jan 2007

Posts: 125

PostPosted: Fri 11 Feb, 2011 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A couple of Tulwars early to mid 19thC, very sharp as are most antique Indian weapons. The use of wooden scabbards covered in hide or cloth contributed to these blades usually being in a better state of readiness for use i.e. sharpness than their European counterparts which were dulled by being sheathed and unsheathed from metal scabbards.
Regards,
Norman.



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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 11 Feb, 2011 12:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Many British officers gave themselves leeway when it came to their swords, and that was especially true of officers serving in India in the armies of Bombay, Madras and Bengal. This sword, my only other cavalry sword, speaks to this individualism. Originating from John Jacob of the Scinde Horse, the scroll hilt (or acanthus hilt) is best known for its brass-hilted incarnation in the form of the British Pattern 1857 Royal Engineers Officer’s Sword. But well before 1857 a steel version was favored by officers serving in India, and continued to be produced for discerning officers of both the British and Indian Armies who wanted good fighting swords. My sword, serial number 13539, was made in 1865 for an officer of a Bengal Cavalry regiment. The 1 lb. 14 oz. sword is an excellent example of a weapon intended for service. The steel guard is engraved with an acanthus leaf design. The rest of the weapon is rather Spartan in design. Aside from the standard Wilkinson Pall Mall, and the proof disc, the only blade decoration is the officer’s family crest. The rest of the 34 ¼” blade is plain, and has been sharpened for service. The sharpening begins 8” from the guard and continues to the tip, while almost 7” of the false edge has been sharpened. The scabbard is steel with a German silver mouth, and the inside is lined with wood. The original owner was a veteran of the Indian Mutiny/Rebellion or 1858-59 and would have carried this sword during the Black Mountain (sometimes called 1st Hazara) Expedition of 1868. This is my favorite sword in my collection. I think Glen felt the same way after handling it when we got together last fall. Happy

For further reading on the scroll hilt I recommend "The Swords of John Jacob" by Graeme Rimer (Royal Armouries Year Book 2, 1997).













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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Feb, 2011 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan I like that one - that sword with the scroll hilt in steel is obviously built for use, not for show. One of my favs of yours Wink

How does that bowl/guard compare to the heavy cavalry bowl/guard in size? Here is a snapshot of one of my 1821 Heavy cavalry pattern swords by WIlkinson from 1893.... this one has the patent solid hilt



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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 11 Feb, 2011 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really like the steel hilt on that Jonathan!

Here is my monstrous M.1813 Bavarian Mounted Artillery saber. It has only a 28 inch blade but it is a heavy giant of a sword. I kind of like Mounted Artillery swords because they all have the simple D-Guards and being left handed it doesnt look odd when I hold them that way. This sword has the loose type scabbard rings so I am thinking it is 19th century though I wouldnt be suprised if it saw service in the first World War. This is one heavy duty blade. I have a friend who does live steel armoured combat who hefted it and said "I'd fight with this against an armored opponent." You could probably drop an Atomic Bomb on this number and the sword would be little the worse for wear. There are interesting dents near the mouth of the scabbard that look like shrapnel marks! The tip is like a double edged broadsword.



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inkothemgard!
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 11 Feb, 2011 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom R. wrote:
Jonathan I like that one - that sword with the scroll hilt in steel is obviously built for use, not for show. One of my favs of yours Wink

How does that bowl/guard compare to the heavy cavalry bowl/guard in size? Here is a snapshot of one of my 1821 Heavy cavalry pattern swords by WIlkinson from 1893.... this one has the patent solid hilt


Thom,
It is comparable in size to pre-1890s heavy cavalry hilts.

I love that Patent Solid Hilt, as I am sure you know! Happy I just got a new one (a P1845 in antry officer's sword) and I am in the midst of researching it. Right now the crest on it has me stumped!

Jonathan
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Sat 12 Feb, 2011 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't own this sword but I wanted to include it because it's one of my favorite 19th cen. American sword. The M.41 Boarding Sword. Just beautiful....


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inkothemgard!
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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
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PostPosted: Sat 12 Feb, 2011 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

here are four British baskethilts spanning the 19th c.

left to right, P1798 (probably from early 19th c) , P1828 officers sword from 1840s, P1857 Sergeants sword from 1880s, and P1868 officers sword from 1893,
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William Goodwin




Location: Roanoke,Va
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PostPosted: Sat 12 Feb, 2011 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the only one in my antique collection that's actually 19th c. everything else is very early 20th c.

my M1883 Italian infantry officers saber - F.Horster - Solingen makers marked. Triple etched, pipe back blade so suprised when I found it at a local gun show.









some very grand looking pieces shown thus far....thanks for sharing all.

Love that M1861 Austrian of Morgan's.....could kick my own arse for letting mine go.


cheers,

Bill

Roanoke Sword Guilde

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"I was born for this" - Joan of Arc
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Sat 12 Feb, 2011 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Pattern 1845 Infantry Officer's Sword is similar to its predecessor, the Pattern 1822, in that both patterns share the same hilt design--a brass "Gothic" hilt with folding inboard counterguard. The major difference between the P1822 and P1845 is the blade; the P1822 has a pipe back blade and the P1845 has a fullered blade. In 1854 the hinged inboard counter guard was discarded in favor of a permanently fixed guard, and thus the Pattern 1854 Infantry Officer's Sword. Despite the fact that the brass hilt was thought to be weak and inadequate, the Pattern 1822/45/54 swords remained in service for the vast majority of the Victorian period, and were not superseded by another pattern until 1895.

This Pattern 1845 Infantry Officer’s Sword was supplied by the relatively unknown Scottish firm of Millan & Mann, George St., Edinburgh, and dates to 1845-1854. The brass guard retains traces of its original gilt finish and the fish skin grip is in excellent condition. The blade bears standard decoration such as foliage and VR ciphers, as well as the original owner's initials; GJL. The brass mounted black leather scabbard is in excellent condition, but like the hilt it has lost most of its original gilt. The officer who owned this sword purchased his commission in 1848 as an ensign in the 33rd (The 1st Yorkshire, West Riding) Regiment of Foot. Less than three years later, in 1851, he retired from the Army. Soon thereafter he became a captain in the Dumfries, Roxburgh & Selkirk Militia, where he would remain until 1861.













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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Mar, 2011 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am still hoping for an early spring here and for better light indoors.

Here are my eagles from the 19th century period. I have more pictures of these scattered about for more detail if interested.




Our left to right are four English made swords, a slightly later German sabre then a couple of much later militia types with nickel plated blades, nothing really fancy there..



The German sabre has some remaining etching. The two spadroons also have blue &gilt left with the five ball showing typical stands of arms with a liberty cap. The one far left is entirely foliage type decoration. All the light grips are bone except for the beaded hilt which is ivory. The other two sabres are steamed and pressed horn, rather than carved wood. Those have no etchings at all and most will regard the plainer unadorned swords as for junior officers and nco roles.

Also now new to me while reading through a book of the Ames Sword Company history (John Hamilton) is an early militia Roman helmeted shorty. I am still unsure if it was shortened, as we find these in a variety of lengths. This one the shortest (if sold that way) I have encountered. This one is probably from the early to mid 1830s but I have encountered similar Ames pieces with pre American Civil War Masonic etchings (ie the Hamilton example). Ames was a very early seller to various groups and lodges with even the gladius style artillery swords being etched to the Masons and Odd Fellows quite early on.



The patina is quite thick and I'll probably not strip the hilt clean aside from removing loose and impacted dirt but there are traces of the gilt plating a lot of these older ones had.



The shell guard vs the shield we see on a lot of these through the 19th century is shown in Peterson's American Swords book and that hilt just dark wood and an egg pommel, marked (iirc) to the Portsmouth (brain fade, it might be Maine) N.H. artillery.



So this one is just a 21" blade while the one I'm posting below is 24" and I have also seen 27" and 31" blades with the Ames militia patterns. This one jst below is a 24" example but with the same cross-hatching and the shield type guard.



Variety is the spice of discovery, really. I am also posting a couple of pictures of a very related example I really can't define as to who and when but it is possibly older than the other two above.




A lot of what we see listed of these knight/Roman pommels can turn out to be one of a masive pile but every now and then, some rather scarce ones do surface.

Cheers

GC




.
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Pattern 1827 Rifle Officer's Sword was the first official pattern specifically for officers of Rifle regiments. During the Peninsular War Rifle officers would have carried non-regulation variant of the Pattern 1796 Light Cavalry Sword or the Pattern 1803 Infantry Officer's Sword (as sword for officers of light infantry and flank companies), and during the period 1822-1827 they would have carried the Pattern 1822 Infantry Officer's Sword. The Pattern 1827 Rifle Officer's Sword is essentially the same as the Pattern 1822 Infantry Officer's Sword, except the hilt is steel as opposed to gilt brass, and the inside edge of the guard is fixed instead of hinged. Until the mid-1840s the P1827 had a pipe back blade, which was replaced circa 1845 by a fullered "Wilkinson" style blade. In 1892 a new blade pattern was introduced for all infantry officers. This blade was of dumbbell cross section and was designed for the thrust. The P1827 (with P1892 blade) is still the regulation pattern for officers of Rifle regiments.

The rifle volunteer movement was huge between 1860 and the end of the 19th century. Consequently, many rifle pattern swords were produced, and a very high percentage of those swords on the market today belonged to volunteer officers, and a relatively small proportion of these swords actually belonged to officers who saw active service in a regular army rifle regiment.

The sword pictured below was sold in 1866 to an officer of the 60th King's Royal Rifle Corps who served in several campaigns including the Red River Expedition (1870), the Second Anglo-Afghan War (1878-80), and the First Anglo-Boer War (1881-82). The sword is of standard form for a P1827. It has a steel "Gothic" hilt with strung bugle badge, fish skin grip with silver wire, a steel scabbard, and standard ~32" blade, and what I believe to be the original sword knot.

The blade is in immaculate condition, and is simple in its decoration; Wilkinson label etched on ricasso with HW circular proof slug on the opposite side of the ricasso, scrolling foliage and VR cypher and a strung bugle. The spine of the blade is marked with the serial number and is etched with the center of percussion marking, and the blade was sharpened for active service.







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Jack W. Englund




Location: WA State
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 12:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:

The 1854 Dragon is the shortest of three flavors of those, with the Carabiniers model another inch or so longer overall. Speaking of massive, there was also a bayonet/lance version that never really went far in favor.








Cheers

GC
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Jack W. Englund




Location: WA State
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jack W. Englund wrote:
Glen A Cleeton wrote:

The 1854 Dragon is the shortest of three flavors of those, with the Carabiniers model another inch or so longer overall. Speaking of massive, there was also a bayonet/lance version that never really went far in favor.








Cheers

GC


AHH, A Sword Bayonet .

Seldom mentioned, But to me , are a part of my "load out"
Clarification -
I own 2 "Baker Riffles" ( 1 I made, 1 made by a very good Gunsmith ( TRS parts)
These Rifles were The ones carried by the Brit. Rifle units from 1800 - 1840s.
These were equipped with "sword bayonets" ( there were "pattern" changes) Perhaps the most recognizable unit, may be the 95th Rifles ( the Brit rifles still say "fix sword" & not bayonets"

According to my info, they were seldom used by the "95", except to cook food." & when they "stood in the line" (The blade" is 23" long & 1 1/4" wide & def. could be used as a "sword", IMHO.)
I do not own an authentic, but here is a generic ( with the "baker I made ( 1812 )
)

Jack
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