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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 03 Jul, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Gjermundbu mail doesn't have any openings but one shirt isn't a good sample size. We have nowhere near enough examples from that region and time period to determine whether it was typical or not. If you want to tailor it so that it fits really well then it will need an opening of some kind.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

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PostPosted: Wed 03 Jul, 2013 6:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I see lots and lots of openings. Wink

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui


Last edited by Mart Shearer on Thu 04 Jul, 2013 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jul, 2013 6:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

there is, i think, a literary reference saying bolli bollisson (or something) came back from his byzantine service with a maile coat that went down to his knees or even longer...

that may be a byzantine hauberk rather than a viking one though.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jul, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
I think there were no openings as mail in viking age was as far as we know above the knee length so the opening is not needed.


The Ljósvetninga Saga says that King Harald had

"a coat of mail called ‘Emma’ that reached to the knees and was so strong that no weapon could bite into it."

Granted this example is right at the end of the viking period but it is still relevant.
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 3:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
there is, i think, a literary reference saying bolli bollisson (or something) came back from his byzantine service with a maile coat that went down to his knees or even longer...

that may be a byzantine hauberk rather than a viking one though.


The moment a viking wore that maille it became a Viking maille (though not originating from that Culture). Wink

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 9:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any progress on this project?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Jan, 2014 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sadly no, I've been relocated for engineering consultant work at another city than my home for the last 7 months now and haven't been able to find a proper crafts workshop to do anything like this at.
But I'm finding myself moved home again by the company i a week or so, maybe I can do more on it then.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Resurrection again of an old thread. I just re-read my old thread from start to finish and decided it's high time to continue building on the existing patch of maille and also try to improve it further.

For starters I'll try to make a single link that looks exactly like the ones in Vegards photos.
The next thing I want to do is draw some wrought iron wire and hammer some to plate to punch.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Daniele Trentin




Location: Italy
Joined: 23 May 2014

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sun 14 Jun, 2015 3:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Johan,

sorry for reviving this old post, but I've followed with great interest your work and found it of huge help.

I'm planning to re-create the figure of a mail maker in the mid-13 century, and I want to prepare a workbench to make some demos at the reenacting weekends I participate with my group.

The mail I want to produce will be of the demi-riveted with round rings and round rivets type, so I will definetly need every tool you've described in this amazing thread. For educational purposes, I want to add the wire drawing step...

What I'd like to ask, if it is the correct place, is how 13th century maille is different from the Gjermundbu described here.

Thanks in advance for any answer.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jun, 2015 6:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You might want to do a search on this site for "Tofta", as a mid-13th century coif (demi-riveted, round rivets) was discovered there. C14 AMS was performed on the leather thongs still attached, so the mid-13th century date is confirmed.
http://samla.raa.se/xmlui/bitstream/handle/ra...sequence=1

Of course, this does not mean that all mid-13th century mail appears exactly the same. Likely dated to the destruction from the Mongol Invasion of 1239, we see multiple ring sizes and shapes in a single shop in Gomel, Belarus.

S.U. Kainov, trans. Dmitry V. Ryaboy, Medieval Russian Armour workshop in Gomiy
http://www.oocities.org/kaganate/gomiy.html

Quote:
The fragments of maille fabric contain from 1 to 200 rings, over 600 rings total. Half the fragments has rings with a circular cross-section (wire diameter 1-1.5 mm), half -- with a flat cross-section (1x2; 1-1.5x3; 1x3 mm). The diameter of the rings is 6, 9, and 14 mm. It is certain that many fragments formed different sheets of maille. The mail-making process looks unfinished: there is one ring left unriveted, and several chains of single rings.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Daniele Trentin




Location: Italy
Joined: 23 May 2014

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri 19 Jun, 2015 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart, thanks a lot for the info, I'll have a look as soon as I can..

Are there any other 13th century mail evidences to analyze? I'd like to know what are the distinctive features of it, for example the average ring size, the wire gauge, type of rivet, and size and cross section for solid rings.

I assume the tools used by a 13th century mail maker would have been similar to those shown here...
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

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PostPosted: Fri 19 Jun, 2015 10:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniele Trentin wrote:
Mart, thanks a lot for the info, I'll have a look as soon as I can..

Are there any other 13th century mail evidences to analyze? I'd like to know what are the distinctive features of it, for example the average ring size, the wire gauge, type of rivet, and size and cross section for solid rings.

I assume the tools used by a 13th century mail maker would have been similar to those shown here...


It is almost impossible to date a piece of mail without known provenance. There may be some 12th century mail which has been mis-dated based on speculation. Other pieces recovered archaeologically which might be more reliably dated are often so corroded that the information you seek may not be accurately determined. Consider the example from Lena:
http://www.djurfeldt.com/patrik/kungslena.html

The closest thing I've seen to determining an "average" is for Dark Age mail. Although there is little evidence for the 12th century, the physical limitations of functional mail would suggest most mail falls into the broad range shown.
http://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/resources/authenticity/chainmail/

Assuming that all mail-makers in all times used a similar process or similar tools is an assumption which has many pitfalls too. The Tofta coif uses round rivets, but the tool used to close them leaves a sort of pyramidal look around the head. This may be a feature peculiar to the region, or a given city, or even a single shop. I haven't seen any evidence pointing to the use of wedge rivets before c. 1300, though wedge rivets are used in demi-riveted mail. Transitions such as moving from round wire to wedge rivets, or demi-riveted to all-riveted mail are never instantaneous or universal. Like the Gomel find shows, expect variation, both in details like ring diameter, cross section, and thickness. and I would suspect in process and tools.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Daniele Trentin




Location: Italy
Joined: 23 May 2014

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Mon 25 Jan, 2016 3:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I started making some tools to make mail. By now, I'm working on the riveted rings. I prepared some overlapped rings and annealed them.

I have a pair of questions aboit riveting. First, how much do I need to flatten the overlap? Rings are 6mm ID made with 1.5mm wire...I was thinking to flatten the overlap to get the same thickness as the wire, using only a hammer and anvil. Do you think it is enough..?
Second, I read Johan pierced the hple for the rivet on a soft metal base. At home I have some aluminium which should be fine. But I can not bring aluminum at reenactment events, so I was thinkinh about a plate of lead...it would be soft enough and, as soon as it gets worn, I can melt it and remake the plate...what do you think?

Thanks a lot in advance!
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Daniele Trentin




Location: Italy
Joined: 23 May 2014

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sat 19 Mar, 2016 7:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I noticed that almost every image has disappeared from this thread..may I ask why? It would be great to bring them back, they were of huge help..!
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sun 20 Mar, 2016 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniele Trentin wrote:
I noticed that almost every image has disappeared from this thread..may I ask why? It would be great to bring them back, they were of huge help..!
Very unfortunate, this is why images should be uploaded to a photo host and posted along with the original link if possible.
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