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What would you do with a bit over $1k?
Two Albion Liechtenauer Practice Longswords
20%
 20%  [ 11 ]
An Albion Practice sword and Mail voiders
22%
 22%  [ 12 ]
I would go for something else
56%
 56%  [ 30 ]
Total Votes : 53

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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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Posts: 247

PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan, 2011 6:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Phil D. wrote:
Doesn't it really rely on skill level. Wooden or synthetic wasters are probably better for the beginners in your class...you can always upgrade as you get better. It seems that better quality weapons (especially live steel)are a good incentive to hone your skills.


I am probably in the minority but It's my personal belief that it is better to start out with steel trainers and learn good technique and control. I do not believe in starting out with padded swords, wooden wasters and synthetic swords and then slowly working up to steel trainers for several reasons.

1) None of the alternatives to steel trainers give you any realistic appreciation for working from the bind or understanding the concept of feeling as Thomas puts it. The Krieg (or bind) is one third of the fight according to the German school of longsword with the other two parts being the onset (Zufechten) and the withdrawal (Abzug). Therefore, my reasoning is why hamper what you are learning by such a significant percentage (1 third of the fight) by choosing a training tool that limits that part of the lesson.

2) Wooden wasters are more dangerous than steel trainers in my experience because they do not flex. Therefore, a wooden waster will break someone's hand, forearm or shin much quicker than steel which has significantly more flex in a thrust or a strike. A wooden waster however is useful for teaching the participant how to strike powerfully. Only this lesson should be taught against a pell and not a person (again my opinion). Wooden wasters are also a great tool for drilling but that's about it. Pell work and drilling not sparring. A pair of steel Hanwei Federschwerts are almost as cheap as a pair of wooden wasters and they have more flex than any training tool out there. The Hanweis are perfect beginner swords that are not only cheap but also safe.

3) Padded weapons are a little more forgiving than wooden wasters but they teach you almost nothing about good technique, control, edge alignment, feeling, bind work and many critical nuances of the craft. About the only usefulness they have is that they’re a little safer to swing against another human at full power than a wooden waster would be.

4) Shinai are very safe but are much too light to give you a realistic sense of the fight. In other words, they are lightning fast but do not prepare you for the feel of a real sword or a real sword fight.

5) Synthetics are the only alternative that I like other than steel from a safety standpoint. They have the feel of a steel sword as far as weight and balance and they flex, but as I mentioned in item one they are not useful for teaching work from the bind.

I realize that I am in the minority here, but I believe that starting out with steel trainers increases the speed of the student's learning curve exponentially and prevents learning bad habits born out of the limitations of the alternate training tools. Also, the inherent and perceived danger of a steel trainer automatically manifests itself into a healthy respect for the weapon by the student (respect = safety). Students are forced to learn control of the weapon which in turn teaches them better control of the different techniques. I truly believe that most injuries in WMA occur because students do not respect or appreciate the danger of the weapon and therefore they do something stupid which causes injury to themselves or others.

My 2 cents.

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Jan, 2011 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well... this is a first for me, I will be going with the least favorite opinion here.

For one I started out investing over 3 years of my time and money on butted mail; only learn that what I have is completly flawed in every aspect of historical accuracy that I am seeking after.

I get the same vibe from the posts made thus far. I want to learn something... the correct way. And "If" the best materials are availible, then thats what I am going for, as was mentioned, "Whats more important to me?"

Down the road I'll buy my voiders, though right now I don't "have" to have them. A WMA group is what I am looking to start.
So a large thanks to everyone that has contributed thus far.However I have another question, I know there are threads on the topic though for me particularily as a novice in the line of WMA...

As two Albion Maestro Liechtenauer Practice Longswords will be my choice

What books and or videos would you recommend to me to learn the art of longsword from?

I do have a somewhat basics on footwork and a tad bit of knowledge and practice with pole arms but thats about it.

Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 247

PostPosted: Mon 24 Jan, 2011 6:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher VaughnStrever wrote:
Well... this is a first for me, I will be going with the least favorite opinion here.

For one I started out investing over 3 years of my time and money on butted mail; only learn that what I have is completly flawed in every aspect of historical accuracy that I am seeking after.

I get the same vibe from the posts made thus far. I want to learn something... the correct way. And "If" the best materials are availible, then thats what I am going for, as was mentioned, "Whats more important to me?"

Down the road I'll buy my voiders, though right now I don't "have" to have them. A WMA group is what I am looking to start.
So a large thanks to everyone that has contributed thus far.However I have another question, I know there are threads on the topic though for me particularily as a novice in the line of WMA...

As two Albion Maestro Liechtenauer Practice Longswords will be my choice

What books and or videos would you recommend to me to learn the art of longsword from?

I do have a somewhat basics on footwork and a tad bit of knowledge and practice with pole arms but thats about it.


Because I'm one of those who learns better by watching, I'll tell you to buy a good instructional video first before investing a lot of money in books. However, with that said

Christian Tobler's book "Fighting with the German Longsword" http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/titles/fighting/Fighting.htm is a good basic starter book.

I also love Medieval and Renaissance Dagger Combat by Jason Vail http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Renaissance-Da...158160517X


The instructional videos I like are:

For the German School - The Longsword of Johannes Liechtenauer, Part I by Ochs http://revival.us/dvd-ochsliechtenauerlongswordi.aspx or Extreme Fencing, the German Art of the Longsword by Shielhau.org
http://www.schielhau.org/xfdvd.html

For the Italian School I have a copy of and like "Medieval Combat - Italian Longsword, Student Guide Level 1" by Colin Richards http://www.artsofmarsbooks.com/

I'm sure there are plenty of other great books and videos that I haven't covered that someone else can recommend.

I would also encourage you to reach out to any WMA groups nearby. There is an ARMA group in Austin but I'm not sure they're allowed to teach outsiders and there is a Meyer Freifechter Guild in Junction, TX who would probably love to meet up with you.

All that being said the single best thing you can do as a new group is to attend FECHTSHULE AMERICA in Houston, Texas on March 25-27. http://hemaalliance.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=697 Some of the best instructors from all over the world will be teaching courses that will get your group started off with a bang.

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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A. Gallo





Joined: 08 Jan 2011

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon 24 Jan, 2011 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This was a very helpful thread. I never really took into account how different wood and steel must feel in the bind, for example.

I'm sure founding a local WMA group, even a small one, will have exponentially greater long-term payoff than finishing up kit details. And the latter is something you can always do really.

I'm also interested in the answer to Christopher's last question (about the DVDs). I've wanted to learn the longsword since I was 15 or so and when I finally started a class, I took an antibiotic called Levaquin and sustained severe nerve damage. Years down the road I'm partially recovered but I think a DVD would be more up my alley than being the sole semi-cripple in a live sparring group.
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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 247

PostPosted: Mon 24 Jan, 2011 7:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A. Gallo wrote:
This was a very helpful thread. I never really took into account how different wood and steel must feel in the bind, for example.

I'm sure founding a local WMA group, even a small one, will have exponentially greater long-term payoff than finishing up kit details. And the latter is something you can always do really.

I'm also interested in the answer to Christopher's last question (about the DVDs). I've wanted to learn the longsword since I was 15 or so and when I finally started a class, I took an antibiotic called Levaquin and sustained severe nerve damage. Years down the road I'm partially recovered but I think a DVD would be more up my alley than being the sole semi-cripple in a live sparring group.


I probably should start another thread but we'll see what the Mods want to do.

I am not sure what kind of nerve damage you sustained but one of major activities of Western Martial Arts is drilling and it could be therapeutic for you. Here is an excerpt from a paper I am writing called "The HEMA Study Group Resource and Equipment Guide" for my own study group describing drills:

Drills are designed to teach and instill the necessary biomechanics and muscle memory used to properly execute strikes, techniques and devices in accordance with the historical manuals. You will awaken muscle groups that you didn’t know existed for whose development means the difference between whether or not you become an effective Western martial artist. The development of these same muscle groups meant the difference between life and death to the Renaissance and Medieval fighter. There are drills that teach proper transitions between primary and secondary guards. There are drills that teach full strikes, half strikes, handworks and footwork. The numbers of HEMA drills are as endless as the imagination of the ancient masters and the modern practitioners of today’s HEMA movement. Hanko Dobringer wrote in 1389 “For practice is better than art. Your exercise does well without the art, but the art is not much good without the exercise.”

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Mon 24 Jan, 2011 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Humm...if your interest is in starting a WMA group up, the best bet would be to get some people together and see what they have (I believe this was brought up already). You may have to get some more items then just two swords. If your lucky and you have 10 guys show up, having 2 albions won't help much...but 10 hanwei practicals would. The problem with having 2 albions is that if the students get hanwei swords (they are the cheapest) then those hanwei will get completely shreded by the albions. By just having albions, your saying that anyone new that wishes to join MUST spend 500 bucks to do so beyond the first guy. Course you can get one for yourself and like 4 hanwei swords and have some extra for maybe an extra mask or two. This way you have some loaners for students and have a high quality training sword for if anyone with such also joins up. But of course this assumes you get a decent amount of interest in your area Happy . In anycase, good luck starting the group up.
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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Jan, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you so much for those suggestions and links that will prove to be most helpful.

In regards to the idea I have to set-up-shop sort to speak, I am planning on starting slow, I know the idea is to have a sword in everyones hand, though I want to be a bit more... how do I say.... precise in my efforts.

Here are some key points I have in mind...
Two people can practice at a single time (If more people come to join, i'd be impressed)
A spectator (Student) can learn from watching someone else practice.
If a student wants to practice and takes the group seriously, they will consider buying a sword (Be it a cheap sword or an expensive sword)
As far as safety gear, in my opinion (at least for now) thats cheap enough for the student to buy (I do have some basic gear for two people to put on)
I dont want to go through cheap swords like toilet paper, I want them to last as long as a sword should.

Again, I am not starting a full fledged gym with all the bells and whistles, I want to start slow and as accuratly as I can. I am not looking to start an enterprise, but rather to further my own personal pursuits of learning the art. And if people come and join, well all the better, and a sword shortage problem is more than welcome.

though again a large thanks for all the diverse opinions, because without them, I wouldnt know what I was getting into

Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Thomas R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Jan, 2011 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

... and there is another point about providing tools and protection gear to fencing pupils: Soon after I started my small group (I got four Shinai for the start) I realized, that people don't care to buy their own stuff, if they regularly can borrow it from me. So one day, I only brought two Shinai. And guess what? Next time we met, some of them had bought their own. Same with the swords. Big Grin
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Mike O'Hara




Location: New Zealand
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jan, 2011 12:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Christopher

Returning to your question about videos/books - I thought the suggestions already made were good.

Copies of some or the original material is also great - especially with some of the well researched commentary and additions that have been made by people over the last few years

But I'd also agree about finding someone more experienced to train yourself with - you need someone to test your ideas, increase your expertise and give you things to learn that you can then translate for your students.

No amount of video substitutes for training with someone that knows what they are doing. The subtle things that make a great difference to (for example) an outstanding (works on nearly anyone) v good vs poor bind.

This is not a personal criticism and if you feel you are already experienced enough - I apologise and withdraw the suggestion Big Grin

My WMA is very limited but after 30 years of eastern - I am definitely still learning and will take most opportunities to learn something from someone

cheers

mike

MIke O'Hara
Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jan, 2011 5:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually I welcome the criticism. I appreciate the thoughts and opinions of others, whether they be negative or positive. One has to be humble enough to listen to all sides of the story in order to fully understand any subject.

Thats the one idea I have, is not to shun others ideas as to understanding the subject. I am limited in my means to availible teaches as the san antonio area is scarce, and as has been posted there are groups nearby. I'll deffinitly look into those groups. Though I would like to have an open mind as to different interpetations on the subject.

I have heard of controversy regarding different groups and how they feel what they are teaching is better or more "correct" though aren't we all studying a subject with the same intent? To learn the art to the best of our abilities.

Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jan, 2011 5:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really like the Agilitas/Ochs Longsword video. Unfortunately, the copy I bought is in PAL format which makes it difficult to watch, and I bought it from an American vendor, so caveat emptor. I also have their messer video, which is spectacular, and is either region-free or NTSC, even though I got it from a European supplier! Confused IMO there is a tremendous correspondence between the weapons.

I have a ton of books that I use. I'm assuming that you are working on German longsword, in which case I have a few recommendations. Christian Tobler's Fighting with the German Longsword is one that I use a lot, but be aware that it is an older book and I gather that Christian's interpretation has changed since its publication. I like to contrast it with Hugh Knight's The Knightly Art of the Longsword; seeing the similarities and differences really helps me figure out my own interpretation of things. I just yesterday received a copy of David Lindholm and Peter Svard's Knightly Art of the Longsword (along with their Knightly Arts of Combat), and although I haven't had enough time to judge their interpretation, the format of the material is the best for an instructional book I have seen yet. The illustrations are very clear, with footwork diagrams corresponding to each picture, and arrows showing the movements of the body and sword at each stage.

I also recommend Christian Tobler's In St. George's Name and Jeffrey Forgeng's translation of Joachim Meyer's The Art of Combat for original sources from early and late in the Leichtenauer tradition (St. George contains a translation of Von Danzig).

But as others have said, take every opportunity you can to work with an established instructor. Fechtschule America should be a great opportunity within your reach and coming up soon. It's probably too far for me, but I'm tempted to go there myself, considering how much I gained from going to Longpoint this past weekend (and my instructing and judging responsibilities limited me to taking two classes!) If you can convince an instructor to come and work with your group at some point, that's even better. They can teach your group some extra material, and if you set things up right, they can help you with your teaching and interpretation of material.

Good Luck!

Ottawa Swordplay
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