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Connor Ruebusch




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PostPosted: Thu 30 Dec, 2010 9:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JG Elmslie wrote:
Scottish weapons.

despite my growing up quite literally able to look out the window to Cullodden Battlefield, the universally "scottish" stuff (ie, tartan tat, baskethilts, targes, and midget italian princes) interests me about as much as a good kneecapping.

I honestly cant see the appeal. its a dismal, midge-bitten backwater that was culturally a century behind civilisation, which produced some miserably uninspiring equipment...


Yeesh, tell 'em how you really feel, eh? Let's avoid trashing nations and regions. I'm sure there are plenty of Scots on myArmoury who might object to the description of their home as a midge-ridden backwater!

Ex animo,

Connor
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Thu 30 Dec, 2010 11:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting question. I tend to agree with most of the posters in that I am less interested in E asian weapons and anything that is more decorative/ritual/fantasy as opposed to a serious weapon. Also, I do get bored with same-old same-old stuff everyone is into. Right now that includes Japanese swords, Scottish stuff and anything with a wheel pommel. My sister jokes that I have no real preferences when it comes to weapons. Whatever I am learning about becomes interesting, rather than learning about what I find interesting.

Right now I am really into Scandinavian weapons from the Bronze Age to the Rennaisance. That seems to be an area that I am repeatedly drawn back to. I have mixed feelings about Viking swords, some are very beautiful, some are quite ugly. Though I have recently been concentrating on Viking-style sword-play, I have a preference for hand-and-a-half/bastard swords.

Often aesthetics and functionality are in conflict, especially when it comes to earlier weapons. I LOVE the looks of swords from Nydam and other early Romano-Germanic swords, but I wouldn't want to be stuck with one in a fight (pun unintentional Wink The lack of a developed guard and blade-heavy balance make these beautiful weapons seem rather weak in the function department. Perhaps (probably) my feelings will change as I learn more about the use of these weapons.

Overall, I am incapable of maintaining a preference for very long, as my interests are constantly changing as I learn more and more. This can make it really difficult to do reenactment, as by the time I get one kit together, I have gotten distracted and want to do something else. One year I can be found with a cowboy hat on my head, a handle-bar mustache and a 1863 Remington New Model Army on my hip, the next year I am practicing Pollaxe in hose and doublet, then on to WWII Russian sniper get-up, now a Viking. I am so glad I live in a place where I can walk around with just about any weapon I want on my person without attracting trouble.

I have to agree with Jeremy in that I really dont like the looks of falcatas and kukris, whatever their functionality. Maybe because my first "sword" when I was a wee lad was a cheap kukri that was a real piece of junk. I wonder if the forward cuved blade really makes any difference in cutting power? I much prefer the Germanic war-knives, similar concept but without the curve. I hope my rambling mostly stayed on-topic, I am sick now and havn't slept in a couple days.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Dec, 2010 11:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Connor Ruebusch wrote:
JG Elmslie wrote:
Scottish weapons.

despite my growing up quite literally able to look out the window to Cullodden Battlefield, the universally "scottish" stuff (ie, tartan tat, baskethilts, targes, and midget italian princes) interests me about as much as a good kneecapping.

I honestly cant see the appeal. its a dismal, midge-bitten backwater that was culturally a century behind civilisation, which produced some miserably uninspiring equipment...


Yeesh, tell 'em how you really feel, eh? Let's avoid trashing nations and regions. I'm sure there are plenty of Scots on myArmoury who might object to the description of their home as a midge-ridden backwater!


First, it's unfortunately necessary to tell Connor not to moderator people on myArmoury.com. That's the moderators job and is explicitly prohibited as per our rules. For future reference, please use the "Post Report" function to report such things.

Having said that, Connor is absolutely right.

JG Elmslie, I will be sending a private message about this, but will say at this time that I do not wish to say such bashing ever again on this site from you or any other person. It is completely inappropriate. Discuss it in PM with me.

Any person wishing to make a comment on what I've said here will leave it to private messages. You where to reach me.

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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You know, there's a significant category of weapons that have been marginalized and excluded from our discussion, and this reflects, in part, the tendency for historiography to largely leave it out these cultures and generally exclude them.

What about the weapons and armour of indigenous peoples throughout the planet?
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Gottfried P. Doerler




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PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 2:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

principally i like all kinds of swords, at the moment i`ve a hard time deciding between something 18th cent. swedish style or something ancient greece (kopis/xiphos..)

the only period swords i dislike are smallswords, dressswords etc...... i heard there were even ones with grips of painted porcelain.....
and everything intended for mere decoration purposes, like some napoleonic weapons eg. the ecole de mars cadet sword (which should look somehow roman or classical??), or sabers with cock (gallic cock) or eagle-head pommels.

i`ve always the feeling these are kind of toy-weapons and i want something "real".

as for indigenous weapons - there are some interesting examples like the sudanese kaskara (the average guy will surely think these are crusader swords at first sight)



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the cadet sword of the ecole de mars - one of the worst patterns of all time

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eagle-heads and cocks make me shiver
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am not particularly interested in Asian weapons although I can appreciate the craftsmanship which goes into the making of a katana. I might even like to own one some day but right now I will concentrate on Scottish weaponry. I also have little interest in plate armor and should I ever acquire armor, which I doubt I will at my advanced age, it would be maile instead of plate. While I find most historical weaponry - outside my own passion for Scottish and early medieval stuff - interesting, I have absolutely no use for fantasy blades and armor. I guess because it isn't historical and usually not based on anything historical.

As for the earlier comments about Scotland, the origin of most of my family on my father's side, I think it is a very interesting place historically, beautiful in terms of scenery and populated with some very nice and interesting people. Have been there twice, hope to return soon.

Happy New Year.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Not My Cup of Tea         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:

When it comes to arms and armour, what sort of things just aren't your cup of tea? What types of weapons or armour do you not forsee yourself ever being likely to want to collect or own? Are there any particular types of arms or armour that really just don't do it for you? For that matter, are there any types of arms and armour that you dislike, as opposed to merely being disinterested in?


There are some sub-areas of arms collecting that I'm not likely to ever get into, as in actively collect in them.

Napoleonic: I never understood in my bones the attraction of specialising in Napoleonic collecting, re-enactment, wargaming, etc. Yes, some of the swords are nice, some of the military history is interesting (especially Peninsular), but maybe it helps to be French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, or such, to have a deeper cultural connection. I see it as a small niche of arms collecting, very narrow and lacking variety. As part of a more general post-Medieval European thing, sure, but as a primary focus? OK, I can see why re-enactors focus, but I don't see why so many collectors (and wargamers) focus so strongly on this period to the exclusion of also-interesting adjacent-in-time periods. I must confess to a number of Napoleonic pieces: 1796LC, spontoon, some lance heads, a couple of Napoleonic dirks. All British. The French swords don't do it for me, and I haven't seen any cheap sources for French lances and polearms. I have my eye on a nice dirk that looks more French (or American) than English, and the 1796HC is on my want list, but not a priority. All of the above are replicas, but I'd consider adding an original 1796LC.

American Civil War: As above, but more so. Is there a narrower popular niche? A few years, one country only (or two countries, depending on POV). Major impact, easy to see why people get into it, and I can understand why people specialise in it better than I can for Napoleonic stuff. I never felt the attraction myself. Other than a nice bowie, maybe a D-guard bowie, I can't see myself buying anything ACW.

Modern military: Many of the major weapons (e.g, artillery, aircraft, armoured vehicles) are too large and expensive for feasibility (for me; the truly dedicated manage well enough). Legal issues with firearm ownership, firearm replicas, bullet-proof armour. And on top of that, a lot of the gear is ugly. Don't have anything post-Cold War, and don't intend to actively look. Most of my post-Napoleonic military stuff is Cold War helmets, which may or may not count as "modern" (possibly depending on your age).

Scottish: Another narrow niche, as far as the classic "Scottish collecting" goes. While a lot of stuff produced to meet this demand is about as good as a $10 katana, there's some nice stuff too - demand, some of which is for reasonable quality, means availability. So if one goes for a two-hander collection, and doesn't shy away from cheap production swords of reasonable quality, one gets a Hanwei Lowlander. Is this collecting Scottish? If one collects basket hilts, and gets some Scottish examples, is one collecting Scottish (I don't have any Scottish baskets yet; this one's still hypothetical)? Some nice dirks out there.

There are other things I'm not interested in (e.g., Spanish-American machetes, fencing swords and armour), but they're not such prominent fields of collecting. I considered adding "civilian swords" to the list above, but I've actively gotten some (Asian) civilian swords, and less actively gotten others (Mexican). Lack of a rapier is a matter of priority, and I'd rather get a decent one to start with, since I'm not planning to get many. Less interested in smallswords.

Some fields have been mentioned as unliked, but they're not on my list above:

Japanese: I can see why the perception of "over-hyped" turns some people off. I wouldn't focus on Japanese pieces to the exclusion of others. But there are some very, very nice Japanese-style things available, and very, very nice genuine pieces (usually at a higher price). Why avoid them? Elegant spears and other polearms, and surviving martial arts traditions teaching them. Huge choice of production swords, to suit most budgets.

East Asian: Assuming that people weren't using this as a synonym for "Japanese" (and if they were, they shouldn't, since it's misleading), what's wrong with Chinese and Korean arms and armour? The Chinese stuff is very diverse, from Bronze age through to 20th century stuff, swords, knives, polearms, all being available. Lots of spectacularly poor quality stuff (low quality and inaccurate replicas) on the market, but some nice ones too, ready to buy off-the-shelf. If not satisfied with those, go custom. Just as fencing foils should not turn collectors off from European A&A in general, modern floppy wushu "swords" shouldn't turn people off Chinese A&A.

Fantasy: There are some very nice fantasy pieces out there. I wouldn't seriously collect "fantasy" as a category, but I'm not averse to fantasy pieces in general. I am averse to bad fantasy pieces. I think that modern "art" swords and knives are poor value for money for my collecting tastes, but the good ones are really nice, really beautiful. Some nice examples on pages 130 and 190 of Spirit of the Sword. Some of the best fantasy pieces are quasi-historical. There's a fuzzy borderline for reproductions based on historical fiction, or fantasy pieces that are in historical style but replicate a specific fantasy piece. Some of these last types can be nice, too.

Craig Peters wrote:

What about the weapons and armour of indigenous peoples throughout the planet?


To restrict this to the "primitive" and "tribal" groups usually intended by "indigenous", there aren't any that I avoid, but I'm not actively collecting them. Most of what I have is African, Congo and East African mostly, spears mostly. Next is probably Polynesian. The gaps in this are from not actively collecting this kind of thing, just more casually getting something now and then. Not much American stuff turns up here, and the good Maori stuff is expensive.

Australian stuff has been a low priority - I can go to the local (i.e., state) museum and look at their excellent collection whenever I want. Some people avidly collect North American, but this is another niche that benefits from cutural connections. I wouldn't say no if some nice North American stuff was to be available at a nice price. Some North American lance heads are on my want list, and I'd consider a reproduction bone bow (or an original, but I can't imagine running into a sufficiently cheap one), and I'd definitely consider Aztec armour and a macahuitl.

Craig Peters wrote:

And, if you are interested in all weapons from all cultures from all time periods (for real?) I would be interested in hearing why that is the case for you.


Why not? Why not be interested? It's interesting to see different solutions (or the same solution) to the same problem in different places and times. Comparison illuminates function. Comparison illuminates history and development. If I was interest in Viking swords (and I am), I'd be interested in Migration Period swords and Medieval swords (and I am). Doesn't this then lead to early Germanic swords and Renaissance swords? Etc., and where does it stop? One becomes less interested to the point where one doesn't invest the resources to seriouslyy collect, but "less interested" can still be "interested". At some point, I buy books on A&A (or history) and not A&A in some area.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 4:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I think Timo about summed up my thoughts in greater detail. Laughing Out Loud
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 4:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good post! I agree with so many of the posts that have been made. Collecting Arms & Armor is such a niche hobby to begin with, it's kinda funny how we all seem to carve out our spot of interest and stick to it. I have numerous swords that are similar but for some reason I want more...even with the huge variety of other weapons I could choose from. For me, it's 9th-12th century European swords. Anything else might fascinate me, but hasn't been able to truly "speak" to me like those weapons have. Maybe I'm just a touch obsesssive...
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Sean O Stevens




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PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 6:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm one of those people (for real) that's interested in pretty much all arms and armor from all places on this earth and all time frames. Wink I've just always been fascinated by the warrior culture... in all its many varied forms. Given enough money and time... I would likely have representative pieces from all regions and time periods.

That said, everyone has preferences and I'm no different.

I don't think I'll ever be much of a modern/firearms collector. I see them much more as tools... even tho there are some very interesting warrior traditions that involve firearms... I've just always been uncomfortable with them. I'm working on overcoming that... I intend to acquire and train with 2 maybe 3 guns in the near future. However, I don't ever forsee me having the love or interest in them that I have for more historical weapons.

I've never been to interested in Russian swords and weapons... not really sure why.

The indigenous peoples of South America have never captured my interest... nor have their weapons. This holds mostly true for Africa as well.
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Josh Warren




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PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 6:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While I echo the sentiment expressed by many here regarding having a distaste for far Eastern arms and armour (and especially Japanese stuff), I cannot agree with the prevailing attitude towards plate armour. For me, all other armour pales in comparison to a well-executed, custom-fitted full plate harness in quality steel made by a master of the armourer's craft--a symphony in steel, the very pinnacle of war-gear, reaching a degree of sophistication unmatched in my estimation by any other arm, offensive or defensive. The lesser stuff is just uninteresting to me; give me plate over the rest any day.

I also have difficulty comprehending the attraction to Scottish weapons; that culture and its history just . As others have said, it's too "niche-y" to attract me. Maybe one has to have Scottish ancestry in order to truly "get it."

Non Concedo
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R D Moore




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PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 6:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:


What about the weapons and armour of indigenous peoples throughout the planet?


Excellent point Craig. I am fascinated by Pre-Columbian Mesoamerican weapons, and need to delve into that one of these days.
http://www.precolumbianweapons.com/swords.htm

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2010 6:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it's important to focus on the fact that most of us have certain favourite periods and places of interest and others that leave us relatively indifferent and this Topic is about talking about the arms that leave us personally cold or at least little enthused: What we should avoid is lacking respect for other peoples interests or being negative about it.

As an example I don't collect stamps or Barby dolls or beer bottles but as a collector I can understand the passion if not share the object of the passion of others.

I can say that all arms and military history has always been my passion and I find it all interesting but don't focus on collecting it all. I could include in this a strong interest in the design of castles and fortifications and I also find ships from galley to WW! and WW!! battleships very interesting, less so modern warships.

19th Century Ironclads, late 19th Century/Early 20th Century battleships, battlecruisers, armoured cruisers etc ..... are also a passion where that I indulge by buying books: The maintenance costs of a Yamato Class battleship, if one even existed, would be a little much and having 3 or 4 battleships would crowd my bathtub a bit I think. ( Oh, getting a permit for the 18" shells would be difficult. Wink Razz )

On a Sci-Fi. unobtanium scale I wouldn't say owning a fully functioning Galaxy Class Starship. Wink Razz O.K. showing my " NERDINESS " in all it's glory. Laughing Out Loud

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Dustin Faulkner




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PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2011 7:58 am    Post subject: Make an affordable German two-hander please.         Reply with quote

I just wish someone would make an affordable German two-hander (zweihander) with flukes and an authentic weight. I like one at the Higgins whose accession number is 2743. Surely there's a way to make one in the lower price range like Hanwei's Lowlander or Claymore.

I admit I am more concerned with an authentic appearance rather than physical characteristics. Those zweihanders just look cool! I know Cold Steel makes one, but it just doesn't look right.

DUSTIN FAULKNER
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Michael R. Black





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PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2011 8:22 am    Post subject: okay, I'll bite         Reply with quote

For me, I tend not to like modern tactical or fantasy stuff. Cant really see myself buying either in the near future.
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2011 1:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I dislike burgonets. They look to me like an unholy cross-breed of a baseballcap and a roman helmet. Wink In it's time it may have been a good helmet, offering protection for small money. But I just don't like it's design. So I won't ever get me one. The rest about the Landsknecht-era, I like very much: slashed clothings, the twohanders, katzbalgers and so on.

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David Wilson




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PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2011 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I tend to limit myself to cultures/eras I am particularly interested, mainly for some very practical reasons. These include:

1. Money
2. Space
3. Time

Okay, mainly #1. Let's face it; if we did not limit ourselves, we'd go broke real quick, now wouldn't we?
That being said, is there anything that does not interest me? Well, there are some things that do interest me quite a bit, but which I choose to avoid primarily for the above listed reasons. I'd love to get into Schiavonas, Katzbalgers, Shamshirs, and Kilijs. Since the question of indigenous weapons was mentioned, I'd like to get into the weapons of the Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest (since that is also a part of my personal heritage), as well as the weapons of meso-America, especially the macahuitl.
Is there anything that does not interest me? Not really. I'd even like to get into Japanese swords, eventually -- well, at least one katana, make that a complete daisho.... sure I think they're over-hyped, but that does not invalidate them, just places them further back on the burner. And so it goes with several other weapons. Armour, too; I don't have much. Would love to have a lot more.

Basically, just because I do not collect or have no plans to collect an item in the near future, does not mean I am not currently or potentially interested. I'm not saying this to be "politically correct", I'm saying it because I wish to have money left over for things like food, shelter, clothing (real clothing, not historical garb)....

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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not much into weapons that are highly decorated.

For me, the beauty or most originals arises from from and function. I could spend hours (and do) just looking at the lines, curves, and proportions of ancient weapons and trying to understand why they were made that way. But usually decorations add nothing for me personally, and too many decorations start to detract from the raw beauty.

It's not a hard and fast rule. For example, I like certain religious invocations and other symbols that clearly had meaning to the original owner, and cetain simple hammered-in inlays on Viking sword pommels.

The worst offenders on this scale are the modern wall-hangers you see in tourist stores and some poorly researched fantasy movies. Its understandable that most people don't know what a medieval sword is supposed to look like, but I can't understand why they want it to be covered in non-functional curly-spikey-thingies and fake jewels.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2011 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Make an affordable German two-hander please.         Reply with quote

Dustin Faulkner wrote:
I just wish someone would make an affordable German two-hander (zweihander) with flukes and an authentic weight. I like one at the Higgins whose accession number is 2743. Surely there's a way to make one in the lower price range like Hanwei's Lowlander or Claymore.

I admit I am more concerned with an authentic appearance rather than physical characteristics. Those zweihanders just look cool! I know Cold Steel makes one, but it just doesn't look right.


Look at the Del Tins as they make 2 or 3 Zweilhanders and 16th century Longswords with complex hilts:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...reat+Sword

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...Half+Sword

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...Half+Sword

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...nded+Sword

The weights are in the ballpark of realistic even if on the heavier end for some, the steel is well heat treated.

The Del Tins at times may need a little tightening of the hilts but I found this to be an easy fix with epoxy and small wooden wedges combined with a few hammer blows on the tang to pean it a bit more. ( This has been discussed in more detail on other Topic threads )

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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




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PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2011 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I find it very interesting to see that what most people here seem to find disinteresting is what has been over-hyped. That's probably why the Japanese stuff is mentioned more than once and also why JG Elmslie said the Scottish stuff (him being a Scot). When you get overexposed to stuff you get fed up with (especially it if you're not much interested from the start) and you also get fed up because you feel there is so much lovely stuff that is neglected.

I'm not interested in swords that have no functional value and I'm not interested in many weapons because I find the design unappealing, even bizarre. I'm not interested in two handed (even Scottish claidhhemh da laims) and hand and a half swords because I feel that they get far more interest than I think the single handers deserve, but again because I generally find them esthetically displeasing. A question of taste, mainly.
But strangely I find some weapons fascinating because they are a bit on the "ugly" side.

Cheers,
Henrik

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