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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 7:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Crescents live on through the histories. Here are a couple more modern but keep in mind even the New Orleans police cars.

An American hat plate



A British or New England horse tack brass a friend bestowed on me for my fetish of things crescent. These talisman go way back in protecting the horses and those carried. A similar one shown in that document plate. About three inches across.



The Percy crescent did appear after the princes (first) crusade and is found everywhere in other heraldic use throughout Britain.



Consider even the use of horseshoes both turned up and down to find luck and/or protect goodwill.

Cheers

GC
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 8:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's interesting. I think perhaps this bit of wizardish imagery was part of what attracted me to these swords from the start.

Of course today we associate the crescent with Islam, but a quick internet search suggest that the crescent image predates Islam by thousands of years, and was associated with prehistoric cave paintings in central Europe, later certain ancient Middle Eeastern Religions, and later still in the early medieval era remained popular through Eurasia and Anatolia, particularly with the Turks in various forms.

It does therefore seem possible that the knightly holy orders picked up the use of this image through contact with Eastern cultures in the crusades. Certainly the templars were accused of adopting 'heretical' practices, and again, one can well believe that the remaining orders would be very careful to avoid any appearance of the same after what happened in 1307.

Still, its ironic that the type O pommel used by some Christian knights, likely at least some of them in the knightly orders opposed to Islam, so resembles part of the symbol that would later be universally adopted by Islam.
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Victor R.




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First - beautiful work so far on what is sure to be a wonderful sword.

The discussion about the crescent and the association with the Templar effigy made me ponder: if you look on the dress uniform of any modern soldier, there will be ribbons commemorating the conflicts in which they have fought. Is there any evidence that knights that had been on Crusade may have used devices such as the crescent pommel, or the engraving of a Jerusalem cross, to signify such service?

I'm not a scholar; haven't done any serious study. Just a question to throw out - see if those more learned among us might have any insight.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Wed 23 Feb, 2011 4:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor, other than heraldry, I haven't heard of Medals etc. being used in the middle ages. Cetainly Templars in the field would have been fobidden to wear anything fancy like this by their rule, although I think their rule was relaxed for major dignitaries in Europe. Having said that, clearly the cross in different forms was used commonly by the knightly orders, and the cresent was used in heraldry (not sure of the details here, but I came across several references to this on-line)

There is always something exciting about anything connected to the Templars, but in the cold light of morning I have to admit that Maurizio's example is just one, compared to relatively numerous similar works of art in central Europe. As said above, it would have been hard for the average knight to inflluence his weaponry because of the Templar's strict rules. The simplist explanation for the Italian Knight's sword is that he bought or recieved it indirectly from Germany.

Still it seems likely that crusaders were exposed to this crescent image at some point in the East, and might have been influenced at some intuitive level when they came home. Not necessarily the middle East - crescents also appeared in pagan Slavic societies, so the Teutonic knights could have picked this up in their Baltic crusades.

It would be intriguing to assign some other mystical or sectarian significance to these hilts (I was thinking Freemasons at one point but could not find a connection), but without evidence that's the stuff of historical romance.
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Feb, 2011 2:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Johnson wrote:
Thank you Maurizio
Is the effigy life sized?
Best
Craig


I think so, eye can see so, but I didn't the measurements, I personally.

J.D. Crawford wrote:

There is always something exciting about anything connected to the Templars, but in the cold light of morning I have to admit that Maurizio's example is just one, compared to relatively numerous similar works of art in central Europe. As said above, it would have been hard for the average knight to inflluence his weaponry because of the Templar's strict rules. The simplist explanation for the Italian Knight's sword is that he bought or recieved it indirectly from Germany.



This hypothesis is perhaps the most plausible. Frederick II Hohenstaufen of Swabia when this Knight Templar was alive, was in those places.
Additional information: There is an inscription on the tomb in Latin.

"MARCHIO SEPULTUS MERITIS EST MARMORE SCULPTUS DET DATOR IPSE BONI REQUIEM PACEMQUE GUIDONI PELLAVICINO PRAENOMINE DE PEREGRINO MCCCI QUI DEDIT ABBATI PARTEM DE CURTE REDALTI."

"The Marquis is buried here, depicted in marble on its merits: He who gives all good things, give peace and rest in the family of Guidone Pallavicino , pilgrim, who died in 1301, which gave the abbot, the property court Redalto."

I hope the double translation is correct.

Ciao
Maurizio
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Feb, 2011 4:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio, I didn't quite understand. Do you mean that this particular Knight traveled in Swabia?

According to Wikipedia a Marquis is a high rank, between Earl and Duke in England. If that is correct then this Templar knight may not have been restricted to standard issue weaponry, especially if he was not stationed at the front lines of warfare. It certainly looks like he had a special sword.

-JD
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Diviccaro Roberto





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PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 1:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio
he was Frederick II of the roman empire and not Frederick II Hohenstaufen of Swabia. Frederick II Hohenstaufen of Swabia was the great grandfather of emperor Frederick II.

bye
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Diviccaro Roberto





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PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 1:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

j.d.
Marquis = Earl.
The difference is that the Marca (the property of Marquis) is a military district while the Contea (the property of Earl) is a administrative district.
The Marca is a borderland. The Marquis don't paid taxes and own a private army.

i hope clear.

bye
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Diviccaro Roberto





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PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 2:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio

MARCHIO SEPULTUS MERITIS EST MARMORE SCULPTUS DET DATOR IPSE BONI REQUIEM PACEMQUE GUIDONI PELLAVICINO PRAENOMINE DE PEREGRINO MCCCI QUI DEDIT ABBATI PARTEM DE CURTE REDALTI.

Il marchese sta qui sepolto, raffigurato nel marmo per i suoi meriti: Colui che dona ogni bene, dia pace e riposo a Guido Pallavicino detto il Pellegrino, morto nel 1301, che donò all'Abate la proprietà del conte Redalto".

The Marquis is buried here. He is engraved in marble by his merits: who gives all good things, give peace and rest to Guido Pallavicino surnamed the pilgrim. he died in 1301. he donated the property of earl Redalto to the abbot.

bye


Last edited by Diviccaro Roberto on Fri 25 Feb, 2011 4:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 3:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ciao Roberto,
Frederick II of the House of Hohenstaufen, perhaps this is more correct.
Thanks for the clarification of Latin-English.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 3:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Maurizio, I didn't quite understand. Do you mean that this particular Knight traveled in Swabia?

According to Wikipedia a Marquis is a high rank, between Earl and Duke in England. If that is correct then this Templar knight may not have been restricted to standard issue weaponry, especially if he was not stationed at the front lines of warfare. It certainly looks like he had a special sword.

-JD


This Templar Knight has never been in Swabia

In 1245 the abbey was occupied and sacked by Frederick II.

Ciao
Maurizio
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 3:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for clarifying this Maurizio.

So an army from Southern Germany was in this area of Italy 56 years before the Templar Knight died, and Southern Germany is the place where type N / O pommels were most popular. That is a possible connection.

Back to the main topic, man, I can't wait for Craig's final set of photos.
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 12:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The crescent moon has strong connotations to Mary, Mother of God.
It is an ancient symbol for the Virgin Goddess and is also used as a symbol for Artemis.

It would be surprising if the strong cult of the Virgin did not recognize the crescent as a meaningful emblem.

We know of other swords with inscriptions and symbols exclaiming to the mercy of the Mother of God.



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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Peter,

Your interpretation seems to make the most sense for a Knight in one of the military orders. Does anyone know if Mary had some special signifigance for the Templers or Teutonic Knights (other than the general Catholic significance)?

-JD
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Diviccaro Roberto





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PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the half-moon is one of the first christian simbol. it rappresent the virgin Mary in unity of God (simbolised with the sun).
this is a symbol of Mary's maternity.
this symbol is generic and isn't only for templars or teutonics.

bye
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 3:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps sometimes the answer is too obvious. The full name of the Teutonic Knights is:

The Order of The Teutonic Knights of St. Mary's Hospital in Jerusalem

PS - again, the article I cite at the start of this thread states that the distribution of N/O pommel finds corresponds to the distribution of territories covered by the Teutonic Knights, and sculptures of knights with crescent-pommeled swords are mainly found in Germany (see original post for details).
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sat 26 Feb, 2011 6:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are a couple more pictures, this time showing the wood-core handle and plans for risers. Craig has also done some more smoothing on the pommel - he's a pefectionist.

Regarding the imagery behind this sword, I'm prepared to state the following hypothesis based on the inputs we've had above: "The type O pommel had a particular association with the Teutonic Knights of St. Mary's hospital, because the crescent pommel symbolized their patron saint." It likely held similar meaning for the Templar Knight who owned one. Combining the very wide cross on these swords with the crescent, this would make for a sword replete with religious imagery.

If you have any more information, feel free to prove or disprove this hypothesis. It would be interesting (although likely impossible) to know if the crescent pommel arose intentionally for this purpose, or just by accident as type N pommel became more curved and someone noticed the connection with the St. Mary Symbol. Food for thought.



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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Sat 26 Feb, 2011 8:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Drool, drool, drool. I hadn't realized how wide the cross was. I really like that. It's not a feature you see much on modern swords but it looks so cool. What a bout a full length shot, or will we have to wait until the sword is done for that?
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sat 26 Feb, 2011 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim, I was also drawn to the extra-wide cross. I'm interested to see how this handles with one hand. I'm not sure if Craig will give us any full length shots (would be grreat - he's a better photographer than I), but if not I'll do some when it comes home. -JD
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Sat 26 Feb, 2011 3:38 pm    Post subject: Symbols         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:

It would be surprising if the strong cult of the Virgin did not recognize the crescent as a meaningful emblem.


Peter's excellent point, can probably not be over emphasized. The structure of how the medieval person viewed the world is crucial to understand how important symbols where to them. Regardless of how they fell as far as religious ideology or view of humanities relationship to each other, they defined their existence via symbols and the observable world.

The world was something full of things that had layers of effects and these could be combined to create different results or layered to create different structures. This is an area one could get a doctorate in quite easily, but to try to over simplify and be grossly common, I will attempt to encapsulate in a short comment Eek!

The idea of a crescent symbol would have been obvious to the maker and the user of such a sword as this. This symbol would have had several layers of meaning to the medieval mind. Few things where given only one level of description or intent n the middle ages. This is something tough for some of us today to grasp as our whole world is about dividing and defining as opposed to seeing the connectedness of the whole.

So the meaning was obvious to even some one of little education on multiple levels of meaning. If a certain order was known for such a symbol or that a certain group chose such a symbol to the exclusion of others is a question for historians to research for evidence but that it did not have the meaning and content of the symbol in its use is to ask them to not be medieval. In a way, the most striking question to me, is why are these not far more common? Why is such a powerful symbol of the period seen so rarely?

Best
Craig
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