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Marc Blaydoe




Location: Maryland
Joined: 29 Sep 2006

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PostPosted: Sun 19 Dec, 2010 5:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That would be a combination of a dragon with a bonnacon, which can emit a noxious excrement that can scorch its pursuers. Others say it is mixed with a poisonous gas. At any rate, it is forbidden to be used as a heraldic device in the SCA.

http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast80.htm

An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
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R Ashby





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PostPosted: Sun 19 Dec, 2010 1:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A bonnacon eh? Now THAT'S something different. And I love the picture.
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Gabriele A. Pini




Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Dec, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben P. wrote:
What are common Anti-Dragon weapons? Besides other Dragons of course. After all if the enemy has Dragons you might want some sort of ballista with a high elevation.


Beside a 500mm RPG? Cool

Probably only a scorpion or a ballista has the necessary rapidity of movement to track a dragon, and even there I think it will require a stroke of good luck to hit him. I have a little experience with trebuchets and onagers and they are simply to difficult to move to think of use them in any sort of AAA capacity.
Think of all the time-fused bullets used in WWII in the pacific war...

If it's a magic world I would invest in some ADA mages (Anti-Dragons Artillery, not geeks specialized in old programming languages): some specialized incantement, like thunderbolt to paralyze the muscles of the dragon from a safe distance (What would be the final velocity of a dragon? How much of a fall he can survive? Certanly the rider would be very annoyed by a 500+ m fall) .
Alternately I would experiment some chemical-biological weapons: poison the waters near the camp of the dragons, the tip of the arrows.
And if there is a substance that's dangerous for dragons but not for humans (like garlic for vampires)? I would stuff my soldiers full of it (literally or only their garments) to discourage a dragon from consume them.

I'm reading this discussion with interest: I was away for a time from the site (have you ever see a pc with a bad problem of calcars?) and return to found this...

I'm still deciding if the dragon is more like an elephant or the combination of a MBT and a chopper: you can use it like in the big battles of WWII (if dragons are abundant and relatively low cost) or as transport for shock troopers (if they are very big) or simply as scouting-couriers-fast transport (image a general like Napoleon with the ability to see the entire battle and relay his order directly to the earth).
He can even transport you assassin to her objective, offer some sort of distraction-heavy support if need and then EVA.

The more the discussion goes on, the more I see that if a general has only a few dragons at his service, he will use them more as scouts and in a supportive role, than in a pure shock capacity.

Some goods readings (even if I think most of us know them):
The Temeraire series by Naomi Novik (great use of dragons as a war machine. The Gundam of historical fantasy)
The Ice and Fire series by G. R. R. Martin. Not very much action, but it's narrated the epitome of dragons as WMD, only used as last resort weapon to conquer the Seven Kingdoms.

Also I would recommend the movie Dragonheart (only the first, skip the second like you would a "true historical two-hands gladius"). There is the use of a ballista as a ADA, two times.

Thought of the day:
Have faith in the authors. A Dance of Dragons will be terminated. What's five years to the long reign of the Emperor?
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Dec, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marc Blaydoe wrote:
That would be a combination of a dragon with a bonnacon, which can emit a noxious excrement that can scorch its pursuers. Others say it is mixed with a poisonous gas. At any rate, it is forbidden to be used as a heraldic device in the SCA.

http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast80.htm


I like the look of the guy in the illumination. He looks . . conserned. .
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R Ashby





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PostPosted: Sun 19 Dec, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The heroine of the character is definitely only a small-team player, though she has gotten involved in large-scale battles before. So I see the role of the dragon as companion, more flexible than a fixed concept.

I had a look through that online bestiary that was posted, and came up with some good ideas for anti-dragon beasts. As for anti-dragon weapons- Lydia (Heroine) killed a dragon with a bolt from a heavy crossbow, but she had to poison the bolt. That was a bigger, dumber and meaner dragon though. Ballista are common in the books, used in seige combat and in naval combat, and could be employed against dragons. The Imperial Guard of one of the big Empires rides wyverns, which would be effective against dragons, though they do not breathe fire. There are lots of shape-changers and wizards as well, that can always call up demon-like things, or even the dragon-equivalent of flaming pigs (flaming seagulls?).

As for falling, well, it would have to be your biggest concern if you were a dragon rider, after mutiny :-) .I think the solution is going to be a roman-type saddle that is crouched in, with straps across the thighs/over the buttocks with some sort of quick-release. An Australian stockman's saddle arrangement might be good as well.

As for the heavy lifting idea, as in making it a dragon helicopter, that would certainly occur, but I think that a proud and rather vain dragon would not like to see itself as a heavy lifting tool, and might become a bit grumpy at always being asked to carry this knight here and that wizard there, and drop that troll in that ravine while you're at it. I think he will only consent to be ridden by one person, that he bonds with, like an eagle will imprint on a human, and carrying anyone else will be a matter of begging/negotiation/bribery with fresh meat.

I think the dragon's personality will somewhat mirror my heroines- she is very much the anti-hero. She does what she wants to do, and whatever it takes to reach the end she desires, without regard to good or bad. She is not much of a human really, which is why the dragon is attracted to her in the first place. She's not evil in the classic sense, but she's definitely not good either. If she does the right thing it is often either out of a sense of personal indebtedness or because she is being forced to by an external force.
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Marik C.S.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Dec, 2010 4:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Something which just struck me, an animal that is able to destroy vast regions of land and can kill whole armies and also is able to consume is enemies, will be subject to worship. Either as the deity itself or as a messenger of the gods or something like that - which is why the Egyptians worshiped the cat. That and because they all hate Mondays.
So if you are including religion in your story - which I hope, it is fantastically hard to create a "good" (in the sense of a realistic society that seems to be alive, not just stiff characters) fictional society without religion because religion has such a enormous impact on a civilization - there might be a battle against a tribe or whatever that happens to worship dragons.
That would be kind of a bummer for the soldiers, wouldn't it? They'd end up as a godly snack.
But then again, for such a battle, you need no anti-dragon devices.
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R Ashby





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PostPosted: Sun 19 Dec, 2010 6:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marik C.S. wrote:
Something which just struck me, an animal that is able to destroy vast regions of land and can kill whole armies and also is able to consume is enemies, will be subject to worship. Either as the deity itself or as a messenger of the gods or something like that - which is why the Egyptians worshiped the cat. That and because they all hate Mondays.
So if you are including religion in your story - which I hope, it is fantastically hard to create a "good" (in the sense of a realistic society that seems to be alive, not just stiff characters) fictional society without religion because religion has such a enormous impact on a civilization - there might be a battle against a tribe or whatever that happens to worship dragons.
That would be kind of a bummer for the soldiers, wouldn't it? They'd end up as a godly snack.
But then again, for such a battle, you need no anti-dragon devices.


Well, I've done religion, but only in periphery, except for one bad guy, who is a living god-type. But I think the dragon is not going to be all THAT powerful, I think that would make the story rather one-dimensional. I reckon more of the "war-elephant on steroids with steam breathe and wings" sort of thing. A well-aimed shot with a longbow, heavy crossbow, and certainly a ballista could bring him down.
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Dec, 2010 6:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Obvious choice for a Dragon Rider is Greek fire! You know, for when the dragon has a sore throat or is out of breath. Or for an unexpected 360 degree arc of fire.

Give the lance to the dragon, not the rider. Having a puny human hold a lance that'll impact with the force of two dragons flying at each other in attack speed never made sense to me and should by rights end with the rider having his/ her arm or entire torso simply torn off. Of course it could be fun to have just that scene play out just to prove a point.
And give the dragon a huge repeat arbalest pistol in a holstrer. With the poison tips of course.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Dec, 2010 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marc Blaydoe wrote:
That would be a combination of a dragon with a bonnacon, which can emit a noxious excrement that can scorch its pursuers. Others say it is mixed with a poisonous gas. At any rate, it is forbidden to be used as a heraldic device in the SCA.

http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast80.htm


Don't I know it. My heraldic device submission was rejected for this very reason. The SCA College of Heralds considers it "offensive", I think otherwise. Wink

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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R Ashby





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PostPosted: Mon 20 Dec, 2010 5:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott- I LOVE that shield LOL

He he he he- I think there's a place for a bonnacon in my books somewhere. That's pretty choice.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Dec, 2010 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Hrouda wrote:
Marc Blaydoe wrote:
That would be a combination of a dragon with a bonnacon, which can emit a noxious excrement that can scorch its pursuers. Others say it is mixed with a poisonous gas. At any rate, it is forbidden to be used as a heraldic device in the SCA.

http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast80.htm


Don't I know it. My heraldic device submission was rejected for this very reason. The SCA College of Heralds considers it "offensive", I think otherwise. Wink


That is when you want to revolt and stage a coup or hire an assassin with a dragon and fry their " derrières " ( French for rear ends )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Dec, 2010 6:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
Obvious choice for a Dragon Rider is Greek fire! You know, for when the dragon has a sore throat or is out of breath. Or for an unexpected 360 degree arc of fire.

Give the lance to the dragon, not the rider. Having a puny human hold a lance that'll impact with the force of two dragons flying at each other in attack speed never made sense to me and should by rights end with the rider having his/ her arm or entire torso simply torn off. Of course it could be fun to have just that scene play out just to prove a point.
And give the dragon a huge repeat arbalest pistol in a holstrer. With the poison tips of course.


Give the dragon a falchion: I assume the dragon has usable hands and not the tiny tiny ones proportionally to their size of a Tyrannosaurus Rex. Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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R Ashby





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PostPosted: Mon 20 Dec, 2010 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Monty Python would approve of your shield anyhow!

I suppose the French would have driven the English away even faster if they had hurled bonnacons at them!
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Gabriele A. Pini




Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como
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PostPosted: Mon 20 Dec, 2010 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OT: I would suppose that the medieval men would like very much the shield. They had a very gross sense of humor (we have to pass over the prejudices of the 1800)

I proved myself against dragons in writing, and in the end I eliminate it as a mount for my hero (I substitute him with a Incubus, a spirit of darkness. He can transform itself in a dragon, but he's not as powerful).
Probably a dumb (as a horse, or little more) dragon would be easier to manage, but not as interesting. From the other point of view you probably don't want to write another Eragon....

Thought of the day:
Come on, men: you didn't sign in the Guard to live forever!
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R Ashby





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PostPosted: Mon 20 Dec, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriele A. Pini wrote:
OT: I would suppose that the medieval men would like very much the shield. They had a very gross sense of humor (we have to pass over the prejudices of the 1800)

I proved myself against dragons in writing, and in the end I eliminate it as a mount for my hero (I substitute him with a Incubus, a spirit of darkness. He can transform itself in a dragon, but he's not as powerful).
Probably a dumb (as a horse, or little more) dragon would be easier to manage, but not as interesting. From the other point of view you probably don't want to write another Eragon....

Thought of the day:
Come on, men: you didn't sign in the Guard to live forever!


I haven't read Eragon, and only watched the move for the first time the other day. I think the best parallel to by stories is JRR Tolkien meets Clint Eastwood in The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and other Spaghetti Westerns meets Dexter :-).
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Wed 22 Dec, 2010 8:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm. I seem to recall seeing a writing article that goes into some detail about possible countermeasures to fantasy aerial forces, including means that don't require the availability of anti-air weapons:

http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/399306.html

*looks away and whistles*
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R Ashby





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PostPosted: Wed 22 Dec, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Hmm. I seem to recall seeing a writing article that goes into some detail about possible countermeasures to fantasy aerial forces, including means that don't require the availability of anti-air weapons:

http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/399306.html

*looks away and whistles*


outstanding! Thank you! There dozens of ideas there I could use!!
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R Ashby





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PostPosted: Wed 22 Dec, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How about a harpoon with a tether that can be tied to a saddle horn. Now that's nasty.... :-)
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2010 9:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

R Ashby wrote:
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Hmm. I seem to recall seeing a writing article that goes into some detail about possible countermeasures to fantasy aerial forces, including means that don't require the availability of anti-air weapons:

http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/399306.html

*looks away and whistles*


outstanding! Thank you! There dozens of ideas there I could use!!


While we're at it, I'm sure the author (*cough, cough*) wouldn't mind some feedback there....
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R Ashby





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PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2010 10:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll be sure to leave some feedback for the most-learned, well-spoken and erudite author! LOL

I actually went through a number of the articles- all very useful!
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