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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Arming doublet of the 15th century Reply to topic
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I found another fine depiction of 15th century armor in combination with a doublet-like gown beneath it in my archive.
As it is very late 15th century (1494), we do see the fashion of wearing only a breastplate on a garment, which comes very low on the back. I don't know how to call this. I neither can determine, if its padded or lightweight. The interesting point for me is, that it is a rare depiction of the very same soldier from front and back. So have a look.

In the background, you can also see another soldier wearing maille underneath cloth.

Regards,
Thomas



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Rothenburg_Reichsmuseum.jpg
Passion of Christ cycle, Rothenburg Reichsstadtmuseum (1494)

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Jens Boerner




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 9:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hm. I would never call that doublet-like, I know that image, rothenburg is just an hour away, the garment shows no sign of a quilting. In southern germany we call that a "leibchen", which can come in different styles. http://www.diu-minnezit.de/1475_leibchen.html http://www.diu-minnezit.de/1475_leibchen_gezaddelt.html
Very useful when it's cold, since you can wear it underneath a jacket, or when it's very hot, because you can wear it instead of the jacket. And of course, underneath armour: http://www.diu-minnezit.de/galerie_fullsize.p...&tid=4
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jens Boerner wrote:
Well, there are a lot of images, and effigies, showing those pleats quite clearly. The lower seam is bended, so I see no sign for quilting. When it comes to images I think it is important to look at them either in higher resolution, or in real life; same for effigies, where you have to stand in front of it. Since they are 3D, you can see the pleats very well. I know several effigies which are only a few km from here, so yes, I'm sure.


It's so frustrating - there are literally hundreds of well preserved effigies from across Europe, but almost all of them are not published anywhere. Or even if they are published, the image is small and usually not very informative.

Tobias Capwell is preparing a book on development of English armour in 15th century - since no actual armour survives, he used effigies as his source. He drove around for five years and documented around 200 effigies, a lot of them for the first time. And now, he has problems convincing publishers that someone would be interested in buying a book on armour which has actually no photos of REAL armour inside. Happy

(back on topic)

I know it's logical not to wear thick garment underneath full plate armour.

I have even heard that certain elements of armour don't work very well when they are worn under too thick padding - if the vambraces (arm defences) are not as slim as possible, then the couter (elbow defence) has to be bigger and exposes the inner side too much.

Also, tight fitting armour will be smaller, and smaller means lighter - always a good thing.

Then there is a problem of heat. Textile defences on their own or under (or over?) mail or partial armour aren't that much of a problem - you sweat at first, but when the garment is damp enough the evaporation will cool you quite effectively. I don't know how that will work under armour. But then again, would the thinner garment help? Most of your body is covered with material that completely stops heat transfer by evaporation...


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jens Boerner wrote:
Hm. I would never call that doublet-like, I know that image, rothenburg is just an hour away, the garment shows no sign of a quilting. In southern germany we clal that a "leibchen", which can come in different styles. http://www.diu-minnezit.de/1475_leibchen.html http://www.diu-minnezit.de/1475_leibchen_gezaddelt.html
Very useful when it's cold, since you can wear it underneath a jacket, or when it's very hot, because you can wear it instead of the jacket. And of course, underneath armour: http://www.diu-minnezit.de/galerie_fullsize.p...&tid=4


Ah fine. Leibchen it's called then. So this seems to be a Leibchen with long arms? Would the wearer wear beneath such a garment a shirt or a doublet? How would he fasten his hosen? Was this a late 15th century fashion or would it have been in use 1470/80 as well? As a rule of thumb I've read, that medieval depictions show what was already in use about 20 years before the date of the painting. Does this apply here?

So far we do have evidence for stuffed (better word, than padded, eh?) textile armor in the early 15th century, arming doublets throughout the century and Leibchen in the late 15th century. A lot to chose from for a proper historical kit, as far as I am concerned.

Thomas

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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 9:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is this "Leibchen" just a form of jacket ("Schecken")?

Hehe, rather than clarifying what arming doublet is we now have Leibchens, Scheckens, Waffenrockes and Rüstwams, oh my!


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Jens Boerner




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 9:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

I guess you all know http://www.effigiesandbrasses.com ? There are not too many late 15th ones in there, but the collection is growing, I know several people from here uploading there also. Maybe when I find time I'll upload also some from the local region.

@Blaz and Thomas: "Leibchen" literally would translate "bodice". We use that term for a short garment, generally opening in front, hardly covering the groins, sometimes without any sleeves, sometimes with short sleeves. There are also some with long sleeves (Munderkinger Passion for instance), although they then are nearly the same as a jacket ("Schecke"). Of course those terms are not fixed; however I would make a clear distinction from a doublet ("Wams"), because this is quite clearly something you always attach you legwear to (post-1340, the german term "wams" appears earlier but was simply a kirtle or something, in englisch and french speaking countries I think the term "doublet" was not used for an male upper garment before the 14th century). The "wams" or "doublet" is always tight, and shapes the body. It is not shaped basing upon the body but puts it in shape- you don't have a waist like in the images without a doublet, unless you are in a damn good shape, literally Wink Wink
(at least I don't...)
So, in the late 15th century, a person, at least in germany, would nearly always wear tight trousers ("hosen") and doublet. Only peasants at work, very poor people or such would wear chausses ("beinlinge"). Chausses with doublet also were out of fashion. Over that goes a jacket, or a "leibchen", or both. Underneath the doublet a shirt was worn- but not always, so it seems.

And yes, there is a lot variation. But hey, after all, that's the cool thing in the late 15th century. The are loads of shapes and types of upper garments to choose from, apart from doublet and trousers.

Quote:

As a rule of thumb I've read, that medieval depictions show what was already in use about 20 years before the date of the painting. Does this apply here?
I don't think that there is such a rule. At least not for the images I know (not only in the late 15th century). What is depicted bases on very different circumstances. For instance many images do base on templates- the painter simply painted them basing on the same common sketch. No matter if the painter was working in southern germany, the netherlands, or austria. Some aspects base on biblic stories- for instance is it not a good idea to use the soldiers nailing jesus to the cross as a base for the own kit- they are in most cases depected in the latest fasion, exaggerated, often the clothing is torn and dirty. In other cases persons are shown very old-fashioned. You can see same clear differences between fashion in the 1460s and in the 1480s, but that may differ from region to region, and painter. For instance, nuremberg was quite rich- and the fashion shown and mentioned was very up-to-date. 100km in the south, regensburg, was not old-fashioned, but the city was not as rich as nuremberg, and generally speaking they were a little bit more coservative.

@Blaz:
Big Grin Please don't curse at me, but I dislike "stuffed" as much as "padded". Simply because textile armour had not been "stuffed": The standal and lubeck ones are filled with cotton wool between 4 layers of linnen and fustian (outer layer). They made a sandwich of those layers with the cotton wool layed flat between the inner and outer layers, and quilted through all layers, sewing all together in the end. "Stuffing" would result in round tubes with only 4 layers of material at the seams- which would be perfect to stab through Wink
I personally perfer talking of "filling" and garments being "quilted". And, depending on the purpose of "textile armour" or a civil garment. For instance, the paltock (generally called a "pourpoint") of charles de blois is a civil garment- altough quilted. Or the italian 1450's doublet mentioned earlier.
But the lubeck and standal textiles are pieces of armour- and they work very well. They are very stiff and rigid.
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for clearing things up a bit! Happy My German is sehr schlecht, especially when it comes to any more technical terminology.

I always assumed that (civil) doublets were padded over chest area a bit to give that "wasp-waisted" form. But then I saw this picture, and many others like it:



I guess people were in damn good shape, after all... I'll just have to fake it somehow...


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Jens Boerner




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 11:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

Just as a side note, the image you posted isn't german, it shows flandric or french fashion, you can see that by the shape of the braguette (flap covering the groins). The german braguette is more lengthy and ends above the trousers (you can see that quite clearly in talhoffers gothaer codices).

I know of no evidence for late 15th doublets being padded, at least not for germany. In the second half of the 14th century this method of modifying the shaper of the human body was used, as for instance the paltock of charles de blois in the musée de tissues at lyon tells us; but for instance the doublet of pandolfo III malatesti is simply quilted and tight-fitting, especially at the waist. Of course we have to do some speculation, but in my opinion you don't have to be in perfect shape to achieve the waist circumference generally shown in the images. Some may be exaggerted, and some simply adolescents, but several fencing manuscripts clearly show elder people of less slim built.
In my opionion the doublet of the late 15th century "simply" has to act as a corset, shaping the body instead of following it's shape. Which means, you do have a smaller waist circumference with doublet, than without it. As for me, I'm if normal built, and I can achieve about 15-20cm less with doublet. This is a very simple one, you can achieve better results without any problems: http://www.diu-minnezit.de/realie_bild_gross....image1.jpg
And no, it does not hinder you from breathing Wink After all, surviving armours also do have very small waist circumferences.

There is a buit of a trick they also used, and which finally led to the goose-shaped belly we know from the 16th century: the waistline is higher in the back, than it is in the front. This results in the belly being pushed above the waist seam. You can see that shape from surviving breastplates also.



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Einfache geschobene Brust, Ingolstadt.jpg
simple breastplate, 1470s, Ingolstadt

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Passion from Karlsruhe, Oberrhein, 1470s [ Download ]


Last edited by Jens Boerner on Thu 18 Nov, 2010 11:25 am; edited 3 times in total
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Chris Kelson





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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blaz Berlec wrote:

I always assumed that (civil) doublets were padded over chest area a bit to give that "wasp-waisted" form. But then I saw this picture, and many others like it:

I guess people were in damn good shape, after all... I'll just have to fake it somehow...


I recently finished creating a doublet quite similar to the one you posted, and despite my somewhat rectangular body shape it does have that same rounded form (though not quite to the same extreme at the waist) as the way the pieces fit together when complete and particularly the waist-level points when wearing it, draw it into that shape.

So you may be in luck Razz
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Mark T




PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blaz Berlec wrote:
Hehe, rather than clarifying what arming doublet is we now have Leibchens, Scheckens, Waffenrockes and Rüstwams, oh my!


Great discussion! However, for those hapless English-only speakers among us (who struggle with how to pronounce pourpoint, gambeson, and doublet properly Happy ), and to pull the information in this thread together, would it be possible for someone to list a quick typology here of the above terms?

For example:
    were each of the above garments padded/filled/quilted?
    what length were they?
    did they have sleeeves?
    what pointed from them?
    were they used in civilian dress, military, or both?
    what periods we find them in?
    whether they are equivalent in form and function to what we generally now talk about as pourpoints, gambesons, and arming doublets?


This would help a lot!

Indicative photos would also be great. I've enjoyed seeing the http://www.diu-minnezit.de site, but Google Translate struggles with some of the German - usually at the most critical moments!

Cheers,
Mark T

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Mark T




PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another image from myArmoury's own feature article 'Quilted armour defenses of the high middle ages' by Alexi Goranov (http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_quilted.html).


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Jens Boerner




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 3:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
Here's another image from myArmoury's own feature article 'Quilted armour defenses of the high middle ages' by Alexi Goranov (http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_quilted.html).


Hm well yes. Often citated modern image. But thats simply no evidence, but the authors/painters own interpretation.

Quote:
were each of the above garments padded/filled/quilted?

What do you mean by "above", "pourpoint, gambeson, and doublet"? If so, the answer is definitely no.
The general problem is, some are historical terms, which are not clearly defined, and some modern ones.
For none of them is a perfect general definition.
I'll do my best to answer it basing upon my knowlegde. And yes, I'll do a little bit of grumping about reenactors Wink

pourpoint
-> middle french for a garment being qjuilted (no, the term does _not_ come from "points", since this word is not middle french, but from "pour poindre" -> "to stitch through". Can describe all kinds of quilted garments. May or may not be military. generally knee length or shorter, depening on time frame, region and garment described. May be interchangable with an doublet, aketon, gambeson or other type of garment. Normally has sleeves, but does not need to have. Mentioned in the 14th and 15th century (and possibly also later).

----
Normally used in reenactors speech for a 14th century quilted doublet-alike tight garment holding the legwear, not necessarily with sleeves, sometimes quilted. Very often used for the (civil) garment in display in the musée de tissus, lyon, dated to the 1360s, french, originally property of charles de blois. Buttoned in front and slower sleeves, has leather laces sewn inside to hold up chausses or an early hose. But please note that this is no historical correct definition! Similar garments are described in english sources in the 1360s and named "paltock".
--

---------------
gambeson

mdidle french for a garment "gambesson". Simply states that it was quilted. Not limited, but most often addressed in a military context (textle armour) Mentioned quite early, I think 12th century onwards. Is _not_ something which was worn only underneath maille. No length defined, no material defined. Normally has sleeves.

--
In reenactors speech it is a soft, padded garment,very often consisting of two woolen blankets between two layers of linnen. Used to soften hits by blunt swords and to make wearing maille more comfortable.
--

-----------
doublet

May name a small item made from crystall consisting of two sheets with emaille in between, sewn to garments. Mentioned in the 14th century (I know no earlier source). Also may apply to metall sheets in decorative shapes, also sewn to garments.
As a garment, the word was used in france and england as well (as most of the words so, since fench was spoken in england in the middle ages, not at all times but very long). Originated from a garment made from two layers of cloth (->double). Normally this is also a major feature of all garments called "doublet": they are all lined, at least. I know doublets from the 1340s onwards, they generally are mentioned holding up the legwear. May or may not be quilted. May or may not be military. Are always tight. Maybe be interchangeable with "aketon" or "gambeson" or "pourpoint" in the 14th century. The german translation is normally "wams", altough "wams" is used a little bit differently; the term was used pre-14th century for several typs of garments, loosely-fitting kirtles. From the 14th century onwards generally used for very tight fitting garments holding the legwear. As doublet, in the 15th century this term is used for the very tight-fitting, body-shaping garment holding up the tight trousers. May be of different shape or quilted, depending on region and time. Has different length, in the late 15th generally ends at the line of the trousers, hip-length. May be sleeveless, but very seldom. Normally a jacket is worn over it, especially when having no sleeves.

---
Reenactors speech: normally means exactly that. Sometimes mixed with all kinds of tight-fitting garments.
---

------
aketon
--
From arabic for cotton, naming a garment filled with cotton wool, and (normally) quilted. Often military, but not necessarily. May be used interchangingly for doublet or gambeson (or pourpoint). In most cases In know(!) used in the 13th and 14th century in england and france for a military garment, filled with cotton wool, quilted, and worn underneath maille and coat f plates or breastplate.

------------
arming doublets

----
From a historcal point of view, we do have basically only very few sources which describe that type of garment. The hastings ms is one of the very few ones. All (I know, which applies to everything I write, I may miss lots of sources) describe the arming doublet as also holding up the legwear, but generally speaking this time of garment does, what it says: it is coming underneath armour. "Padding" is mentioned very seldom, quilting also (must _not_ be the same!). Most sources describe it as a sturdy garment. May have maille sewn or laces to it. May have laces for tying armour parts to it (a feature which can also be found at aketons in the 14th century, by the way).

---
Reenactors speech: usually short version of the "gambeson", padded, very often also with woolen blankets. Often worn on top of a sleevleles doublet which also holds up the leg armour (a feature I know NO evidence for!). Generally as long as the doublet, maybe a little bit longer. Very often made basing upon some italian and spanish sources with leather stripes sewn over the joints. Sometiems with maille sewn to it.
----

Now, you notice I'm doing a little bit of grumping and their terms. I have to admit I'm often not any better, however, there would not be as much confusion of not very often terms were mixed up. Historical terms are not definedy clearly at all, ofteen used interchangingly, but if there was something like a consense, then it would be that doublets hold the legwear, for instance. Of course there are exceptions. But there is a huge difference between a textile armour worn solo, and something worn underneath maille as an additional element of the full armour, and an arming doublet. They serve either completly, or quite differnt purposes.

Quote:

Indicative photos would also be great. I've enjoyed seeing the http://www.diu-minnezit.de site, but Google Translate struggles with some of the German - usually at the most critical moments!

Gosh, I wish I had the time to translate the website completly Sad It has multilanguage support, but unfortunatly translating all is a huge undertaking. Especially since we are adding more content on a regular basis. I also do have a half completed french translation,but I fear it is already outdated. Sorry Sad
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Mark T




PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 4:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jens,

Thanks for such a thorough response!

However, I was meaning the German terms listed above - Leibchens, Scheckens, Waffenrockes and Rüstwams - sorry if that wasn't clear in my post. Blush Many of us here are familiar with the three main French ones (at least, as they are used by reenactors, as you point out), but I had not yet come across the German terms ... and, from looking at your site, and reading some earlier posts, it sounds like these are not necessarily equivalent terms to the French. So I was just hoping for an overview of the German garments / terminology.

And thanks for letting me know that the image from the myArmoury feature is a modern painting - that feature did not give a date. Do you know when it was made?

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Jens Boerner




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 4:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
Hi Jens,

Thanks for such a thorough response!

However, I was meaning the German terms listed above - Leibchens, Scheckens, Waffenrockes and Rüstwams - sorry if that wasn't clear in my post. Blush Many of us here are familiar with the three main French ones (at least, as they are used by reenactors, as you point out), but I had not yet come across the German terms ... and, from looking at your site, and reading some earlier posts, it sounds like these are not necessarily equivalent terms to the French. So I was just hoping for an overview of the German garments / terminology.

And thanks for letting me know that the image from the myArmoury feature is a modern painting - that feature did not give a date. Do you know when it was made?


Ups Wink Sorry, misunderstood that.

Ok, I'll try then:


"Wams": Basically same as doublet, I explained it above. About pre-1340 also used for loose-fitting kirtles, comes from german for belly. Also used for textile armour worn underneath maille ("wambis"), aka "aketon". From the 14th century on tight-fitting garment holding up the legwear (first chausses, then trousers). Generally with sleeves (there are hardly sources for "wämser" (plural for "wams") without sleeves in germany), ends at the hips. In the late 15th century a typical style in germany is to tie it with lots of laces, also underneath the arms (no tied-on sleeves, they are stitched on at the shoulders). Garment gives a very small waist, working as a corset. According to german fashion the braguette ("Schamkapsel"), which has a "banana" shape, is tied with a single lace at about waist height, and the two laces in the front of the doublet, to doublet and trousers (unlike italian and burgundian ones, which end at the lower hem of the doublet, and do have more a V-Shape).

"Rüstwams" then is the same as arming doublet, simply a sturdy version of the "wams". I have not yet found any sources really describing any special features for that in germany, apart from the fact that we do have sources for maille sleeves, which presumingly were attached to some kind of doublet, and some images showing a quilted skirt. Since you do not wear a full maille shirt with german gothic armour, unlike the italiens who did that, you have to wear something really tight-fitting underneath.

"Schecke"
Basically a Jacket. Term is used from the 14th century onwards for a first closefitting, lateron wide kirtle-type garment, which is laid in double-v-shaped folds in the 15th century in germany. From about the 1475s onwards the folds may be stiched into place. There are lots of different terms for it depending on the region of germany. "Schecke" was at last used in several regions of southern germany. Also adressed as "Rock" (which does not mean "skirt" in that case, although it translates that way)

"Leibchen"
This term is not really historical, but it fits best the shape of the garment, at last in my opinion and that of same people I know; I doubt that there is a clear historical definition. Generally we use that for a tight-fitting garment, in most cases opened in front, either closed with buttons, hooks or laces, which is about groin area to mid-thigh length, is worn over the doublet. Can be identified by the simple fact that it covers the trousers partly. May have sleeves, often has none.
After all, the term is nothing but a verbal crutch for distincting tight-fitting garments from the generally loose-fitting "schecke". I don't know if they did that in the 15th century...

"Wappenrock" (also "waffenrock")
The best translation is "arming coat". Normally used primarily for the loose.fitting garments of coat of arms in the 13th and 14th century (which of course became tighter after 1340). May be synonymous with "surcot" (middle french -> "sure-la-cotte", over-kirtle), also often adressed as "heraldic surcot". The civil "surcot" often had the same cut. I don't know if the made a distinction in the middle ages. Can be quilted(!!!). Quilted versions may also be called "jupon" in french.

"Kittel"-> "Kirtle"
"Cotte" (french, but very often used among german reenactors)->kirtle
"Surcot" -> (same as for cotte...) over kitle
"Cotehardie" (yeah I know you know those terms, but in germany there is a fashion in using those...)-> german reenactors in mose cases mean by that a very tight-fitting kirtle of the second half of the 14th century. In the sca and englisch speaking countries they also mix that up with pourpoint and so on.
"Mantel" ->coat, for in most cases used for a cape(!)
"Umhang"-> cape, in most cases a half-circle
"Kotze" (yeah. Right. You noticed it. Also the word for "puke" in germany. Wanna hear a story? That term comes from the corse wool this garment often was made from and, well, had same greenish brown colour....!) -> in some regions used for cape
"Heuke"-> Cape-alike. Appears from the 14th century unwards. Used for presumingly a half-circle-cape. I n most cases is buttoned with 3-5 buttons at the shoulder. May also describe several smiliar garments.

And hell yes, we have lots of discussions about terms in germany, because there are so many Wink
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 5:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jens, thank you very much for this detailed overview. You should post more often here. Happy

Best regards,
Thomas

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Christian Henry Tobler
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 7:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another note on terms gents:

Wams has the same root as 'gambeson'. This is the same Romance vs. Germanic g/gu >> w shift seen in words like 'guard' vs. 'ward', or Guelph vs. Welf.

Cheers,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Jens Boerner




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, in middle french there was the word "wambison", interconnecting "wams" and "gambeson" Wink
Oh and in modern german "wams" is still a very colloquial way to say "belly" (more colloquial would be "wampe" Wink )
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great info, thank you very much!


Two English texts from 15th century that mention doublets. I'm posting translations to modern English here, original texts are accessible in links. Both texts describe arming a man for tournament combat, and we have no information on how this differs from arming for battle.


TREATISE OF WORSHIP IN ARMS, BY JOHAN HILL
TRAYTESE OF THE POYNTES OF WORSHIP IN ARMES BY JOHAN HYLL,
ARMORER SERGEANT IN THE KINGE’S ARMORY 1434
Bod. Lib., Ashmole. MS. 856, art. 22, pp. 376 - 83

Translation by David Nicolle from Knight Hospitaller (2) 1306 – 1565, Osprey Publishing 2001, p25

Original text in The Armourer and His Craft: From the XIth to the XVIth Century
By Charles Ffoulkes, 1988:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2008...johan.html

First him needeth to have a pair of hose of whipcorde without wampeys. And the said hose cut at the knees and lined within with linen cloth cut on the bias as the hose are.

A pair of shoes of red leather laced and fretted underneath with whipcord & persed [given a thin leather sole]. And above within lined with linen cloth three fingers broad, doubled and biased from the toe and anklebone to above the ankle. And so behind at the heel from the sole half a quarter of a yard from this so as to fasten well his sabatons. And the same sabatons fastened under the sole of the foot in two places.

Him needeth also a petycote as an overbody of a doublet. His petycote without sleeves, the sizes of it three-quarters around without a collar and reaching no further than the waist and a doublet also with straight sleeves, collar, and certain eyelets on the sleeves for the vambraces and the rerebraces.

Armed in this manner, first put on the sabatons, greaves and tight cuisses with voydours of plate or of mail and a close breech [for the groin] of mail with five steel buckles and fine leather straps. And all the arming points after they have been knit and fastened upon him, ensure that the points be cut off [meaning the remaining lenghts of leather lace be removed]. And then a pair of close gussets [of mail], ensuring that the gussets extend three fingers' width within the edges of his plates [cuirass] on both sides. And then a pair of plates of 20 pounds weight on his breast, and these plates secured also with wire or with [leather] points. A pair of rerebraces from within the plates with two forelocks [buckled straps] in the front and three forelocks behind. A pair of vambraces closed with voydours of mail and fretted. A pair of gloves [gauntlets] in whatever style is suitable. A bascinet suited to the lists is not suitable for other battles, but when fighting man to man it is said 'necessity hath no law'. The bascinet locked with a bevor and visor which is locked or strapped also to the chestand back with two forelocks.

And this aforesaid Gentleman, when he is thus armed and ready to come to the field, will have on him a coat-armour [a tabard at this period] of single cloth which is better when fighting. And his leg harness covered all over with red tarityn [cloth], the which has been called the tincturing of his leg armour because of this manner his opponent will not so easily see his blood. And therefore also his hose should be red for in all other colours the blood will easily be seen. During the olden times in such a battle nothing should have been seen except his helmet and his gauntlets. And finaly tie upon him a pair of besagews [steel discs to protect the shoulder joints].


How a man shall be armed for his ease when he shall fight on foot
c1450, Hastings MS. [f.122b]
Archeologia 57, Vol. 1 Translated from the Middle English by Brian Price

http://www.chronique.com/Library/Armour/armyd1.htm



He shall have no shirt upon him except for a doublet of fustian lined with satin, cut full of holes. The doublet must be strongly built; the points must be set at the break in the arm in the front and back. To lace the gussets of mail must be sewn onto the doublet also at the break in the arm and at the underarm.

The arming points must be made of fine twine like that with which men make strings for crossbows. These points must have tips for lacing. And they must be waxed with leather-workers's [cood?], such that they will neither stretch nor break. And he should wear a pair of hose made of worsted cloth. Around the knees should be wrapped ' bulwarks' of thin blankets to reduce the chafing by the leg harness. He should wear a pair of thick shoes, provided with points sewn on the heel and in the middle of the sole to a space of three fingers.

-------------------------------------

Some link description "doublet of fustian lined with satin, cut full of holes" in "How a man shall be armed" to "Lentner", doublet covered with stitched "buttonholes", this one is presumably from early 16th century, Bern, Switzerland:


But it might be that it only references to many holes for pointing vambraces, hose and leg harness, and maybe even voiders.

This "doublet" also comes up in some pages and debates, it's from Keinbusch collection in Philladelphia, and it has been attributed variously as being from late 15th century to 17th century in date. It is made from leather:


Madrid artillery museum catalogue from 1837 shows these protective garments. They have deteriorated so badly that they were thrown away, and they are described as "early 16th century". Illustration is too sketchy in my opinion to be of much value.



"Chef de chambre" from Firestryker forums describes this group of illustrations of arming doublets with leather reinforcing:

Donor Portrait of Don Inigo de Mendoza


Quote:
There are two other 15th century pictures of arming doublets I am aware of (and several 16th century ones), one is in a book of hours showing an Archer of the guard of Louis XI's father, wearing this doublet carrying points with cloth or leather re-enforcing along the seams in stripes. Over it he wears his embroidered livery, wears a soft tall hat, and carries a glaive. The other is a Portugese donor portrait with a kneeling doner, the sleeves of his red doublet carrying points and having bits of armour attatched. There is a picture of a tavern scene - not of the same quality as these other two - a typical delightful Franco/Flemish miniature of good quality, showing amongst several people at a table, a fellow wearing an identical grey doublet with those re-enforcing strips in black to the Scots Archer (busily putting away some wine).


Anyone knows what are the other pictures (I only know of "Portugese donor)? Text is too vague to be of any use. Maybe I should ask him...


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Hendrik De Coster




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

here's another interesting monument. to me it seems to show both an arming doublet ass well as the padded/quilted garment shown before Wink
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1557...otostream/
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excellent! The garment of the left knight (that has no backplate) is almost the same as on the Jens Boerners' photo from the first page. But it is even more interesting that kneeling figure which has complete cuirass has similar garment underneath, and it ends with decorative fringes that are also on Lübeck examples! I wonder what is the dating of the monument - it looks almost as if left and kneeling figure are from around 1440 - 1450, and the right one from a later date.


ca. 1470-1475 - 'Engelbrecht I (+1442) and Jan IV (+1475) van Nassau, Lords of Breda and the Lek', Grote Kerk, Breda, province of North Brabant, Holland
Photo by By roelipilami, Roel Renmans: http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1557...otostream/


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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