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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 9:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill just curious about the blade flexibility/rigidity at 1/16" ? it should be able to bend a great deal at this thickness without taking any set but does it have some resistance to flexing and how much ?

This thin one even with no bevel it would be able to cut surprisingly well against some soft targets and shouldn't need a very wide secondary bevel on a totally flat 1/16" side to be very sharp.

Does it have a primary bevel from it's maximum 1/16" thickness at the back and thin down to an even thinner edge with or without a secondary bevel ?

Wonder how much it flexes in a cut ? I would imagine a bit but with good edge alignment it should cut like a Star Wars Light Sabre except maybe against very heavy cutting medium.

I'm guessing it behaves like a machete but much better heat treated and very very sharp.

I think I would tend to prefer a thicker blade stock but I also then to like extreme designs and this is an extreme in the other direction than " overbuilt " and I am intrigued/curious. Wink Big Grin Cool

Oh, the quality/price/design does seem impressive, and congratulations on a good buy. Happy Cool

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Bill just curious about the blade flexibility/rigidity at 1/16" ? it should be able to bend a great deal at this thickness without taking any set but does it have some resistance to flexing and how much ?


Yes, it is very flexible because it is so thin. If I flick it hard back and forth along the axis of the flat, it flops around. The antique messer's I've seen won't do that due to a thicker spine, but I've only seen a few antiques, so I can't say for certain whether that's the standard or not.

Quote:
Does it have a primary bevel from it's maximum 1/16" thickness at the back and thin down to an even thinner edge with or without a secondary bevel ?


Basically, it has a blended secondary bevel at the edge.

Quote:
Wonder how much it flexes in a cut ? I would imagine a bit but with good edge alignment it should cut like a Star Wars Light Sabre except maybe against very heavy cutting medium.


It flexes quite a bit in the cut, so you do need good edge aligment and velocity. The flip side is that because it is so thin, it's very sharp and slices incredibly well.

Quote:
I'm guessing it behaves like a machete but much better heat treated and very very sharp.


Yep... which is essentially what a messer is. Happy

Quote:
I think I would tend to prefer a thicker blade stock but I also then to like extreme designs and this is an extreme in the other direction than " overbuilt " and I am intrigued/curious. Wink Big Grin Cool


To be honest, I prefer a thicker spine as well, but as Ben said, that would raise the price since it requires more work to make. All things considered, I'm very happy with this piece for what it is, and am even considering talking to Ben about a thicker blade later on down the line.

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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:

Quote:
I'm guessing it behaves like a machete but much better heat treated and very very sharp.


Yep... which is essentially what a messer is. Happy


Hmm, I really don't agree with this statement at all. Please prove me wrong, but many (most?) messer, especially by the 15th century, were purpose built weapons. Though, I do agree that it is likely that the messer may have gotten its start as a peasant tool/weapon (similar to the long-ish bladed machete-like tools of many indigenous cultures). Just look at the messer depicted in the Durer illustrations and in Lekuchner's (sp?) fechtbook. They obviously exhibit complex blade cross-sectional geometries (many with incised grooves, fullers, etc). Even the "simple" blade geometry of Albion's Soldat is nothing at all like a machete (it starts as a strong wedge-shaped trapezoid, is a heavy-duty wedge near the middle of the blade, then a much more acute (almost knife-like) wedge near the tip).

Dustin
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dustin R. Reagan wrote:
Hmm, I really don't agree with this statement at all. Please prove me wrong, but many (most?) messer, especially by the 15th century, were purpose built weapons.


If you look at the vast majority of non-military period art, messers are seen carried by commoners as much as they are seen carried by soldiers. It's a long knife (hence the name), and was used by farmers as a tool just as it was used by knights as weapon.

I've spent countless hours pouring over Leküchner, as well as Dürer, Talhoffer and Falkner. I'm not sure how you can say those illustrations show complex blade geometries. Further, I've seen many antique messers. While some are more complex than one would first imagine, many of the small knives (five to six inches in length) are just as complex, and I doubt those were purpose built weapons and not at all tools.

Now, this doesn't mean that there weren't messers that were purpose built to be weapons first and foremost. Many were made that way... but the same can be said of some machetes. In my opinion, the major difference between a modern machete and a historical messer is that the messer existed in a time when swords were still used, therefore it's not a big leap of logic to assume many messers that were tools were made with certain weapon-characteristics in mind, whereas modern machetes exist in a time when swordsmanship is obsolete and therefore that's a non-factor in the design elements.

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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:

If you look at the vast majority of non-military period art, messers are seen carried by commoners as much as they are seen carried by soldiers. It's a long knife (hence the name), and was used by farmers as a tool just as it was used by knights as weapon.


How does the fact that they are carried by commoners as frequently as they are carried by soldiers lead you to believe they were used as tools? Especially so, if they are shown being carried by city-dwellers (I could be wrong, but there is not a lot of brush to clear in the city)? In many cultures , long knives were carried by civilians (think the Kindjal, Kris, or the Khard, to name a few examples), yet these were most definitely not used as tools. By the way, I think it is a stretch to call messer of the late 15th/early 16th century "long knives", regardless of their evolution from such.

You claim that they were used by farmers as tools, is there any contemporary evidence that this is true (literary or pictographic)? Conversely, blades that would generally be considered swords of war have been documented as being used in various camp tasks (to baton firewood and trim branches, for example) by the common soldiery. So, just because a blade might be used at times as a tool does not necessarily mean that it is equivalent in some way to a modern day tool made to be used exclusively for that purpose.

Bill Grandy wrote:
In my opinion, the major difference between a modern machete and a historical messer is that the messer existed in a time when swords were still used, therefore it's not a big leap of logic to assume many messers that were tools were made with certain weapon-characteristics in mind, whereas modern machetes exist in a time when swordsmanship is obsolete and therefore that's a non-factor in the design elements.


This is a good point, and has some parallels with the machete-like blades found today in parts of Africa the Philippines. We may call these blades "machete" (because of the tool-like tasks the most usually perform) but really, they have very little in common with the uniform thickness, stamped out machete blades you'll find in any Walmart or sporting good store in America today. They balance and handle *quite* differently.

Bill Grandy wrote:

I've spent countless hours pouring over Leküchner, as well as Dürer, Talhoffer and Falkner. I'm not sure how you can say those illustrations show complex blade geometries.


I suppose this is subjective, but to my mind fullering/grooving qualifies as a fairly complex blade cross-sectional geometry. Throw in the pronounced distal taper you see in antiques, with a changing secondary bevel angle & false edge and you are getting pretty complex (try forging and grinding a machete versus something like this yourself, and I honestly believe you'll agree -- this is of course just my opinion! ).

Dustin


EDIT: Ack, i just realized that this is in the "Makers and Manufacturers Talk" forum...please feel free to delete/move this post, as I realize it's probably not appropriate for this particular sub-forum.
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Ben Potter
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just a quick note about the blade geometry. it is rather hard to see on a blade this thick but they actually do have a slight distal taper as well as blended primary and secondary bevels. The edge geometry also changes along the edge, steep at the point (for greater strength in the thrust) shallow along most of the cutting edge (for better slicing), and steeper again at the forte (to help stiffen the blade and for greater durability when parrying).

A blade that makes a good sword often doesn't make a good tool (ie. rapiers, small swords) I believe that if you looked at a messer crafted for a knight it would look more like a sword then the average farmers messer, which by the way most likey was used until the blade was ground away and then discarded, leaving us with a disproportionate number of warriors messers as opposed to the everyday working messer. Whenever you approach historical artifacts you need to ask why did this one survive and in light of that would it be representative of all the pieces used at the time.

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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 7:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dustin R. Reagan wrote:
How does the fact that they are carried by commoners as frequently as they are carried by soldiers lead you to believe they were used as tools? Especially so, if they are shown being carried by city-dwellers (I could be wrong, but there is not a lot of brush to clear in the city)?


Because in most places in the 15th century commoners didn't carry around weapons in day to day life.

Quote:
By the way, I think it is a stretch to call messer of the late 15th/early 16th century "long knives", regardless of their evolution from such.


How is that a stretch? That's exactly what they called them. Langes messer means, literally, long knife. The word messer was also applied to eating utensils.

Quote:
You claim that they were used by farmers as tools, is there any contemporary evidence that this is true (literary or pictographic)?


Paintings show them being used for commoners tasks. I wish I could be more specific, as I've only seen these paintings in museums, so I can't tell you what the names of these paintings are.

Quote:
Conversely, blades that would generally be considered swords of war have been documented as being used in various camp tasks (to baton firewood and trim branches, for example) by the common soldiery. So, just because a blade might be used at times as a tool does not necessarily mean that it is equivalent in some way to a modern day tool made to be used exclusively for that purpose.


Sure, no argument there.

Quote:
They balance and handle *quite* differently.


And yet, many modern machetes handle like many historical messers.

Quote:
I suppose this is subjective, but to my mind fullering/grooving qualifies as a fairly complex blade cross-sectional geometry. Throw in the pronounced distal taper you see in antiques, with a changing secondary bevel angle & false edge and you are getting pretty complex (try forging and grinding a machete versus something like this yourself, and I honestly believe you'll agree -- this is of course just my opinion! ).


But I've seen those exact same qualities in messers that are only a few inches long, which is my main point. Just because something is a tool doesn't mean it isn't complex, or that a lot of time doesn't go into it's creation. Honestly, I think you're confusing my point: My point was that a messer and a machete are not that different functionally, not that messers are crude. I've handled real messers (from the 16th century, not from modern makers), and I've studied messerfechten for several years, and I still hold that opinion.

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"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Potter wrote:
A blade that makes a good sword often doesn't make a good tool (ie. rapiers, small swords) I believe that if you looked at a messer crafted for a knight it would look more like a sword then the average farmers messer, which by the way most likey was used until the blade was ground away and then discarded, leaving us with a disproportionate number of warriors messers as opposed to the everyday working messer. Whenever you approach historical artifacts you need to ask why did this one survive and in light of that would it be representative of all the pieces used at the time.


I think that's very true, though I will say the few antique messers I've handled have been very simple. More complex than many people give them credit for, certainly, but nothing fancy compared most antique swords I've handled.

Of course, we know for a fact that many messers were made with highly decorative grips and very detailed hilt fittings, so certainly many were not made with the tool aspect in mind first. Some were certainly made to be weapons first and foremost, but I don't think the evidence shows that this was the norm.

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"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Tue 23 Nov, 2010 10:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Some were certainly made to be weapons first and foremost, but I don't think the evidence shows that this was the norm.


I think you raise some very good points in this and your previous post, however, for me it boils down to this rhetorical question:

Would you ever say:

"Yep... which is essentially what a falchion is. " ?

My guess is that you wouldn't say this. I would imagine that you would say that a falchion is a dedicated weapon. Yet, according to Peter Johnsson,

"Normally it is difficult to make a distinction between falchions and messers from blade alone. You have to look at the hilt construction."

In other words, normally (i.e. the norm!), the blade of a falchion could be interchangeable with the blade of a messer. To me, this is very telling, however, as Ben suggested, perhaps only "weapon-grade" messer have been preserved. This is absolutely a very reasonable suggestion, however, just because it is a perfectly plausible scenario doesn't make it true. One should not jump to any conclusions about "the norm" of messer blade construction based on a reasonable assumption.

Dustin

edited to remove extraneous formatting markup .
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PostPosted: Tue 23 Nov, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dustin R. Reagan wrote:
In other words, normally (i.e. the norm!), the blade of a falchion could be interchangeable with the blade of a messer. To me, this is very telling, however, as Ben suggested, perhaps only "weapon-grade" messer have been preserved. This is absolutely a very reasonable suggestion, however, just because it is a perfectly plausible scenario doesn't make it true. One should not jump to any conclusions about "the norm" of messer blade construction based on a reasonable assumption.


*shrug* I see what you mean, but I can make the same arguement about daggers and knives. There are many purpose built weapons that we'd call a dagger which have the exact same blade as purpose built tools that we'd call knives. Just because you can make two things with similar designs doesn't mean people always thought of them as the same thing.

To be honest, though, it just boils down to semantics. Peter is right that many falchions and messers can't really be distinguished by blade, and yet our ancestors still made a point of calling them separate things. They called what Ben made a knife, and they called a sword-hilted version a falchion. (And to be honest, I do consider messers and falchions different, and hate when people translate messer as falchion, but that's a different thread all together) Either way, it doesn't change the fact that using a messer for fencing is the same as using a sword, so in that we're on the same page.

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"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Tue 23 Nov, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:

*shrug* I see what you mean, but I can make the same arguement about daggers and knives. There are many purpose built weapons that we'd call a dagger which have the exact same blade as purpose built tools that we'd call knives. Just because you can make two things with similar designs doesn't mean people always thought of them as the same thing.


I agree with this statement as an obvious generality, yet I don't agree that it applies to the distinction (or lack thereof) between messer & falchion blades (see below). Furthermore, I would agree that the general form of a military knife (dagger, poniard, whatever you want to call it) might be superficially similar (perhaps the blade in profile) to a knife built as a tool, but the blade cross-sectional geometries will have obvious characteristics that will differentiate them (most common being reinforced point and/or distinctly wedge shaped blade section). A military knife is rarely as useful as a purpose built non-military knife for most tasks...the edge & blade geometries are just too dissimilar.

Edit: of course, this isn't always a binary distinction, but normally one can deduce the military/non-military nature of a knife by a close examination.

Bill Grandy wrote:

To be honest, though, it just boils down to semantics. Peter is right that many falchions and messers can't really be distinguished by blade, and yet our ancestors still made a point of calling them separate things. They called what Ben made a knife, and they called a sword-hilted version a falchion. (And to be honest, I do consider messers and falchions different, and hate when people translate messer as falchion, but that's a different thread all together)




I do agree that they should be thought of as different things, yet their blades were constructed/ground similarly enough that a detailed analysis of the method of construction as well as cross-sectional geometries (not just their superficial profile) "normally" make them indistinguishable

They were/are called different things because they are different when taken as a whole (blade + hilt). This is not just a semantic issue: Their hilts differ substantially in form, with the messer having additional protection (from a weapon?), in the form of the nagel. Furthermore, there is archeological evidence that they took different evolutionary paths (with the messer evolving from...a knife).

Again, the only thing of substance that i've strongly disagreed with is your claim that machete are "...essentially what a messer is".

Dustin
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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Tue 23 Nov, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also, i should add that none of what i've said above is a critique of Ben's work. I think his messer is very nice. Really nice proportions, and I can imagine that it sails clean through soft targets and even medium targets (such as even 1-2 inch diameter green branches). The finish looks perfect as well...a nice satin...my favorite! I'm almost positive that sometime and somewhere, thin spring-like blades like these were tried out in a messer. I bet it's a super tough, springy-blade, as well...15n20 is up there with the toughest steels!
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PostPosted: Tue 23 Nov, 2010 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We are going further and further off-topic Wink but I find myself wondering what exactly the tool use for a messer would be... Much of Europe was/is not exactly covered by the kind of dense vegetation where you'd need a machete... For pruning, harvesting, woodworking etc. they had specialized tools. So I wonder where the messer would fit in, except as a self-defense type weapon, perhaps being occasionally used as a tool.

Also, words like "commoner", "knight" or "farmer" are quite ambiguous in the context of the time around 1500. In many parts of the Low Countries and Germany, wealthy burghers and farmers had more power than knights. So even if the messer is a weapon of the "commoner" class, that does not mean that they can't be highly decorated or very subject to fashion. Personally I think that the messer may have been a fashionable item, and also giving quite a bit of prestige, for some people at some times.
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Dustin R. Reagan





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PostPosted: Tue 23 Nov, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
We are going further and further off-topic Wink but I find myself wondering what exactly the tool use for a messer would be... Much of Europe was/is not exactly covered by the kind of dense vegetation where you'd need a machete... For pruning, harvesting, woodworking etc. they had specialized tools. So I wonder where the messer would fit in, except as a self-defense type weapon, perhaps being occasionally used as a tool.

Also, words like "commoner", "knight" or "farmer" are quite ambiguous in the context of the time around 1500. In many parts of the Low Countries and Germany, wealthy burghers and farmers had more power than knights. So even if the messer is a weapon of the "commoner" class, that does not mean that they can't be highly decorated or very subject to fashion. Personally I think that the messer may have been a fashionable item, and also giving quite a bit of prestige, for some people at some times.


I agree 100% with your points, both implied and explicit!
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PostPosted: Tue 23 Nov, 2010 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a promotional topic in the "Makers and Manufacturer's Forum" -- discussions of terms and definitions and a debate about the manner in which a weapon is used are better left for the other forums. I'd encourage a new topic be created there as it would generate a very good discussion without derailing a maker's ability to conduct business on myArmoury.com. I'd split it off and clean up this mess myself, but it's so commingled now with the original topic that I can't really do that effectively.
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PostPosted: Tue 23 Nov, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very nice weapon.. Big Grin

Ben congratulations that is impressive work. I love the shape of the blade.

Bill, I'd love to get a photo of that blade I could use for the Codex like your Schiavona. Let me know if you are interested...

Regarding the balance on messers, my understanding is that on some historical messers with somewhat thicker blades, the balance was achieved by widening the tang progressively toward the bottom of the hilt. Effectively this acts something like a pommel. Also the blades themselves usually had distal taper.

J

EDIT: I'm going to start a new thread to discuss messers

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