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Timo Nieminen
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 Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary Teuscher wrote: | | Quote: | | A pilum thrower is unlikely to be Olympic-level, so less energy. So 200-300J is a realistic estimate. |
Only thing I'd have to say here - this is an ideal situation for the olympic javelineer, unemcumbered by a shield, on a track with a full run up.
I'd guess the energy produced by the Roman Javelin thrower to be significantly less, particularily if not using a full run-up, which would be difficult in formation.
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I'm assuming about 400J for Olympic javelin, which is perhaps high.
The untrained, standing throw, unmotivated by a charging enemy, can get about 100J with a heavy pilum weight object. This gives us a lower bound.
Going from an Olympic javelin to about a 5 lb pilum, one gets about 30% more energy. So an "Olympic heavy pilum" would be about 500J. That's an upper bound.
(Last 2 figures from R. Cross, Physics of overarm throwing, American Journal of Physics 72, 305-312 (2004).)
I'm assuming a running throw. (Or equivalently, a charging enemy.)
| Gary Teuscher wrote: |
Not to slight the javelins penetration - there are period sources of mailed people having their armour pierced by javelins, though I am not aware of period sources regarding the pilum stating this. Not saying there are not sources, I am just not that well versed regarding the pilum.
It seems t me though the Pilum was a short ranged javelin, but designed to max penetrative power. I'm sure it was a fairly effective armour piercer - but considerering most warriors carried shields an would likely block many of the pilum thrown, havin a good secondary ability to make the shield somewhat useless was nice as well. |
I don't recall any specific accounts of individual cases of armour being pierced by pila, but a number of writers praised them for their anti-armour performance. E.g., Vegetius: "when thrown with force and skill, they penetrated the cuirass without difficulty".
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm assuming about 400J for Olympic javelin, which is perhaps high. |
A tad high, 360j is more accurate
| Quote: | The untrained, standing throw, unmotivated by a charging enemy, can get about 100J with a heavy pilum weight object. This gives us a lower bound.
Going from an Olympic javelin to about a 5 lb pilum, one gets about 30% more energy. So an "Olympic heavy pilum" would be about 500J. That's an upper bound. |
I'd probably go a bit higher than the 100j.
COuld not fund much on the Javelin, but a good olympic score in the Discuss is 200 ft+, an OK high School ahtlete can throw one about 100 feet or so.
I'd put a legionairre trained to use a pilum in the average track and field HS range - so maybe 50% of the energy?
so that would be 180j, or 250j with your more optimum design. WIth a run up.
As far as a charging opponent, depends how fast they close, but they are often marching to contact, perhaps or maybe not charging the last little bit.
But I don't see a run up for the legionairres, but a step, so maybe 150+ J based on your optimum weight idea? Still more joulles than a 140 pound longbow I think.
Throwing them from a forward cantering horse makes any javelin a lot more dangerous though! Add a good 20 mph to the velocity, which I think is roughly adding about 9 Meters/sec.
If my calculation are rght, an Olympic javelin throw is about 32 meters per second, a heavier pilum thrown by a non olympic athlete might be half that, or 16, so you are adding about 50% to the joulles generated if moving forward about 20 mph.
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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I just weighed a couple of my pila. My good hand-forged socketed one is 2 pounds even, same for my older tanged one (with the point broken off). The only thing I have that weighs 5 pounds (a little over, actually) is an old Deepeeka "battering ram", which would require a 2-man team to throw. I seriously doubt any original pilum would have weighed over 4 pounds, weighted or not.
I also think estimating a legionary's capabilities at half that of an Olympic athlete might be a little unfair, though I certainly understand if it's simply a conservative estimate. Those guys trained every day.
Oh, my socketed pilum is the one I chucked through a scutum, one time. It split the 2x4 post that the shield was leaning against. I've been an office jockey for 27 years, and have never been athletic. I don't know joules from vernes, but I DO know these things are dangerous!
Valete,
Matthew
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Timo Nieminen
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| Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew Amt wrote: | | I just weighed a couple of my pila. My good hand-forged socketed one is 2 pounds even, same for my older tanged one (with the point broken off). The only thing I have that weighs 5 pounds (a little over, actually) is an old Deepeeka "battering ram", which would require a 2-man team to throw. I seriously doubt any original pilum would have weighed over 4 pounds, weighted or not. |
The 5 pound pilum is, I think, based on Polybius, haft a palm across:
| Polybius wrote: | | "The pila are of two sorts - stout and fine. Of the stout ones some are round and a palm's length in diameter and others are a palm square. Fine pila, which they carry in addition to the stout ones, are like moderate-sized hunting-spears, the length of the haft in all cases being about three cubits. Each is fitted with a barbed iron head of the same length as the haft." |
I think 5 pounds is remarkably heavy for a javelin (Wikipedia has up to 5 kilograms!). If true, then it's extreme optimising for penetration at the expense of range and portability.
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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William P
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| Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew Amt wrote: | I just weighed a couple of my pila. My good hand-forged socketed one is 2 pounds even, same for my older tanged one (with the point broken off). The only thing I have that weighs 5 pounds (a little over, actually) is an old Deepeeka "battering ram", which would require a 2-man team to throw. I seriously doubt any original pilum would have weighed over 4 pounds, weighted or not.
I also think estimating a legionary's capabilities at half that of an Olympic athlete might be a little unfair, though I certainly understand if it's simply a conservative estimate. Those guys trained every day.
Oh, my socketed pilum is the one I chucked through a scutum, one time. It split the 2x4 post that the shield was leaning against. I've been an office jockey for 27 years, and have never been athletic. I don't know joules from vernes, but I DO know these things are dangerous!
Valete,
Matthew |
just to clarify a few points about that test
i assume the pilum had a pyramid rather than a barbed head?
how much did the socketed pilum weigh?
how far did you throw it? what was the thickness of the scutum?
has anyone in your group thrown the pilum at replica loricas?
(i assume the scutum was a standard curved rectangular sctum made of laminated wood i.e plywood)
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Kurt Scholz
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| Posted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 12:08 am Post subject: |
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If I remember Flavius Josephus correctly, throwing things could take some time before the clash. So we should also add the possibility that pila were given to the best thrower. Reality was perhaps often in between all throw at once and only the best man gets to throw per file. Thus there will in my opinion have been different ranges depending on the mode. Another consideration would be how to reach beyond the first ranks shield in order to break the whole enemy formation. Any ideas on that?
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William P
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| Posted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 12:17 am Post subject: |
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well considering that i think that not just the first rank that throws the pila, i would imagine that the second and third row would have to throw in such a way that it would arc up and hit more than just the front rank.
In addition the fact is that once you kill/ wound/ expose the front rank the rest of the formation becomes a hell of a lot more vulnerable.
But what do we know regarding how pila were thrown? are there any drill manuals surviving from roman times?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Just as an aside, accuracy of throw would also be a factor if one could successfully aim at gaps between shields, exposed faces or even the lower legs and foot.
Mass throwing might be generally random and not carefully aimed but did the Legionnaires also train for accuracy ?
Throwing at a passing cavalryman would be challenging but being an accurate thrower would be a useful skill I think.
Choosing terrain could also factor in as far as range or penetrating power is concerned: Up on the crest of even a small hill would give better throwing opportunities/targets. The enemy charging and throwing uphill would be at a disadvantage adding to the advantages of those throwing downhill.
Oh, and then there is throwing from the battlements of a fortification or a much higher hill. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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William P
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| Posted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Just as an aside, accuracy of throw would also be a factor if one could successfully aim at gaps between shields, exposed faces or even the lower legs and foot.
Mass throwing might be generally random and not carefully aimed but did the Legionnaires also train for accuracy ?
Throwing at a passing cavalryman would be challenging but being an accurate thrower would be a useful skill I think.
Choosing terrain could also factor in as far as range or penetrating power is concerned: Up on the crest of even a small hill would give better throwing opportunities/targets. The enemy charging and throwing uphill would be at a disadvantage adding to the advantages of those throwing downhill.
Oh, and then there is throwing from the battlements of a fortification or a much higher hill. |
we also assume that the pilum will land like a musket volley, all hitting the front rank, id be willing to bet that it didnt go down quite the same way, that if it didnt hit the front rank, the pila would cause general chaos, spattering the whole formation,
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: | | i assume the pilum had a pyramid rather than a barbed head? |
Not always. That was typical for the Principate, but tanged ones from the Republic typically have a barbed triangular head, a short thick shank, and a very wide tang. OH--if you meant the one I threw, yes, pyramidal point.
| Quote: | | how much did the socketed pilum weigh? |
Mine is 2 pounds.
| Quote: | | how far did you throw it? what was the thickness of the scutum? |
I honestly don't recall the range, probably under 10 yards. I *think* the scutum was 3 layers of 1/8" birch plywood, faced with pigskin. A rawhide facing would have been tougher.
| Quote: | | has anyone in your group thrown the pilum at replica loricas? |
Nah, no point. We can't reproduce the quality of Roman armor plate, for one thing. And the idea is to throw these at *barbarians*, not at other Romans!
| Quote: | | well considering that i think that not just the first rank that throws the pila, i would imagine that the second and third row would have to throw in such a way that it would arc up and hit more than just the front rank. |
We've thrown from 2 ranks at once, before, it wasn't hard.
| Quote: | | In addition the fact is that once you kill/ wound/ expose the front rank the rest of the formation becomes a hell of a lot more vulnerable. |
Why would that be? They'd all have shields. It's true that you tend to have more armored men in the front ranks, but they'd be less vulnerable to pila in the first place.
| Quote: | | But what do we know regarding how pila were thrown? are there any drill manuals surviving from roman times? |
Nothing with that sort of detail. Basically, the pointy end goes in the other guy. I've seen 2 guys who really know how to throw and like to teach other folks--their techniques are different, and neither is how *I* throw, but I guess I just do it kind of instinctively. It gets there.
| Quote: | | we also assume that the pilum will land like a musket volley, all hitting the front rank |
Oh, I've never assumed that. The first time you see a volley of pila, you'd get a different idea. They'd hit all over a formation, plus some going too far or falling short.
| Kurt Scholz wrote: | | If I remember Flavius Josephus correctly, throwing things could take some time before the clash. |
Yes, indeed. Some of that may have been light troops, but could be legionaries as well. There are also numerous accounts of missiles flying all through a battle, right to the end, which probably included a lot of picking up javelins from the ground.
| Quote: | | So we should also add the possibility that pila were given to the best thrower. Reality was perhaps often in between all throw at once and only the best man gets to throw per file. |
That may have happened on certain occasions, but I doubt it was common in open battle. You really want the effect of a massed volley, with as many pila in the air at once as possible.
| Quote: | | Another consideration would be how to reach beyond the first ranks shield in order to break the whole enemy formation. Any ideas on that? |
Easy, just throw it. A thrown javelin travels in a high arc, starting at about eye level. If you aim at a man who is advancing, and you don't compensate for his movement, it will go over his head. Though it is true, as WIlliam might have been implying, that it makes sense to target the front rank for the most part. If they fall or stop, that immediately affects the rank behind them.
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Just as an aside, accuracy of throw would also be a factor if one could successfully aim at gaps between shields, exposed faces or even the lower legs and foot.
Mass throwing might be generally random and not carefully aimed but did the Legionnaires also train for accuracy ? |
I believe there are some references which at least imply that accuracy was important, along with range. But in any case, daily practice would obviously cause both range and accuracy to improve! Certainly if there is a chance for an aimed shot, take it. I'd bet there were guys who could do that even at the range when the rest of the line is just going for the mass shot.
Valete,
Matthew
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | also think estimating a legionary's capabilities at half that of an Olympic athlete might be a little unfair, though I certainly understand if it's simply a conservative estimate. Those guys trained every day. |
I'd agree to a point, I was being conservative, taking average HS track athletes throws compared to an Olympic level javelin (Discus really is what I was using, but just for comparative abilities of the athletes)
70% could very well be closer, though a less conservative estimate.
Biggest question is how much velocity would be lost with a step as opposed to a run up. The run up would wreak havoc on the Roman formation as well as that of their opponents.
| Quote: | | In addition the fact is that once you kill/ wound/ expose the front rank the rest of the formation becomes a hell of a lot more vulnerable. |
| Quote: | | Why would that be? They'd all have shields. It's true that you tend to have more armored men in the front ranks, but they'd be less vulnerable to pila in the first place. |
I'd agree it would wreak havoc on the formation of the "barbarians". Not due to total casualties inflicted, or denuding them of the front rank of armoured men, but more similar to the way arrows disrupt a cavalry charge, though not quite to that extent.
The idea is to hit the enemy formation with all your formation at the same time. The Pila would likley cause turmoil as a few men drop, others might trip or walk around, or even hesitate, and "missing" men in the front rank would likley not have their spots filled within the few seconds before the initial clash.
The Roman Pilum IMO is really more of a melee weapon than a missile wepaon, disrupting the enemy formation right before the initial clash of arms. Range is really not important for this purpose, as you want to hit them a few seconds before that initial clash.
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William P
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| Posted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew Amt wrote: | | William P wrote: | | i assume the pilum had a pyramid rather than a barbed head? |
Not always. That was typical for the Principate, but tanged ones from the Republic typically have a barbed triangular head, a short thick shank, and a very wide tang. OH--if you meant the one I threw, yes, pyramidal point.
| Quote: | | how much did the socketed pilum weigh? |
Mine is 2 pounds.
| Quote: | | how far did you throw it? what was the thickness of the scutum? |
I honestly don't recall the range, probably under 10 yards. I *think* the scutum was 3 layers of 1/8" birch plywood, faced with pigskin. A rawhide facing would have been tougher.
| Quote: | | has anyone in your group thrown the pilum at replica loricas? |
Nah, no point. We can't reproduce the quality of Roman armor plate, for one thing. And the idea is to throw these at *barbarians*, not at other Romans!
| Quote: | | well considering that i think that not just the first rank that throws the pila, i would imagine that the second and third row would have to throw in such a way that it would arc up and hit more than just the front rank. |
We've thrown from 2 ranks at once, before, it wasn't hard.
| Quote: | | In addition the fact is that once you kill/ wound/ expose the front rank the rest of the formation becomes a hell of a lot more vulnerable. |
Why would that be? They'd all have shields. It's true that you tend to have more armored men in the front ranks, but they'd be less vulnerable to pila in the first place.
| Quote: | | But what do we know regarding how pila were thrown? are there any drill manuals surviving from roman times? |
Nothing with that sort of detail. Basically, the pointy end goes in the other guy. I've seen 2 guys who really know how to throw and like to teach other folks--their techniques are different, and neither is how *I* throw, but I guess I just do it kind of instinctively. It gets there.
| Quote: | | we also assume that the pilum will land like a musket volley, all hitting the front rank |
Oh, I've never assumed that. The first time you see a volley of pila, you'd get a different idea. They'd hit all over a formation, plus some going too far or falling short.
| Kurt Scholz wrote: | | If I remember Flavius Josephus correctly, throwing things could take some time before the clash. |
Yes, indeed. Some of that may have been light troops, but could be legionaries as well. There are also numerous accounts of missiles flying all through a battle, right to the end, which probably included a lot of picking up javelins from the ground.
| Quote: | | So we should also add the possibility that pila were given to the best thrower. Reality was perhaps often in between all throw at once and only the best man gets to throw per file. |
That may have happened on certain occasions, but I doubt it was common in open battle. You really want the effect of a massed volley, with as many pila in the air at once as possible.
| Quote: | | Another consideration would be how to reach beyond the first ranks shield in order to break the whole enemy formation. Any ideas on that? |
Easy, just throw it. A thrown javelin travels in a high arc, starting at about eye level. If you aim at a man who is advancing, and you don't compensate for his movement, it will go over his head. Though it is true, as WIlliam might have been implying, that it makes sense to target the front rank for the most part. If they fall or stop, that immediately affects the rank behind them.
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Just as an aside, accuracy of throw would also be a factor if one could successfully aim at gaps between shields, exposed faces or even the lower legs and foot.
Mass throwing might be generally random and not carefully aimed but did the Legionnaires also train for accuracy ? |
I believe there are some references which at least imply that accuracy was important, along with range. But in any case, daily practice would obviously cause both range and accuracy to improve! Certainly if there is a chance for an aimed shot, take it. I'd bet there were guys who could do that even at the range when the rest of the line is just going for the mass shot.
Valete,
Matthew |
actually, talking about 'hitting the front rank' i was saying that the OPPOSITE was true, that it wasn't just like a musket volley, the javelins would probably mainly hit the front , that's likely but id say its realistic to expect a decent number to go over the heads of the front rank, killing and de-shielding and tripping up men in ranks behind, i mean if a man in the front rank AND tone a few ranks back got hit by pila it would be doubly disruptive, any person whose shield is dragged down by a pilum would cause havoc for the guys behind him so having a random spattering of the shield-wall could, theoretically cause a heck of a lot more disruption than just hitting the front rank exclusively.
im gonna agree with gary on the pilum being a /'ranged melee weapon' if that makes sense,
ive heard that napoleonic musket volleys were possibly treated the same way, as almost a 30 yard long pike. that you soften the enemy up with then to follow up quickly with bayonet charges.
as you pointed out pila travel in an arc, and do the men in the ranks behind the first have to slightly change their angle of throw?
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