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Ben van Koert




Location: Veenendaal, the Netherlands
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PostPosted: Thu 06 May, 2010 3:59 am    Post subject: My new helmet         Reply with quote

Hi everyone!

I'm very excited! A few days ago I heard that my new sallet has been finished, after a one and a half year wait. It has been made by Albert Collins of Via Armorari.
It's in the mail to me right now, but Albert was so kind to send me some photos of it. It's so awesome!

Before I'll post the photos, I'll give some more details about this baby, my dream helmet, the only helmet I own which will get a name. I'll name her Sally.

Sally is a replica/interpretation of the Royal Armouries II.168 Milanese export sallet. This was originally part of the Churburg collection, where another italian export sallet is still residing. The bevor it's on display with is also remade to fit it.

The entire helmet's hardened and tempered spring steel. The skull is raised from one piece, not a single weld is to be found on her. Her handsewn lining is based on the Churburg S 19 sallet, with a linen band riveted to the skull. These rivets are iron, fitted with brass caps and then gilded. Her brass buckles and strap ends are also gilded.

Here are some photos of the original:


And here she is:






As soon as she's here -after some sleepless nights, I'm sure- I'll post additional photos. I'm so happy right now! I hope you'll enjoy these photos as much as I am.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 06 May, 2010 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm SO very jealous, and eager to start a (less impressive) project inspired in part by the same sallet. I'm especially keen to see the liner in yours. I have a photo of a Churburg liner but I'm not sure from which helmet.

Here are a few more photos of the RA sallet:



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Ben van Koert




Location: Veenendaal, the Netherlands
Joined: 23 May 2007
Reading list: 14 books

Posts: 120

PostPosted: Fri 07 May, 2010 8:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,

As soon as it's here I'll also make some inside shots.

Great images by the way! I wish I had those earlier! I sent Albert a truckload of images, but these are much higher in resolution. Thanks!
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 07 May, 2010 8:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's a larger version of that last one at the RA site. Search their collection for "Field Armour" and you'll find it and some other amazing stuff. Big Grin
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Ben van Koert




Location: Veenendaal, the Netherlands
Joined: 23 May 2007
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Posts: 120

PostPosted: Fri 07 May, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eek!
That's really amazing! Thanks! That's a great resource!
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Fri 07 May, 2010 11:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow Albert's work is amazing... just like the original but shiny! I have always thought highly of his work and this sallet is no exception.

Enjoy your new helmet!

RPM
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Fri 07 May, 2010 10:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben, the end result was worth the wait Exclamation

Between your thread and Sean's thread, I've become smitten with this helm style. Cool

Albert's workmanship is exceptional and his attention to historical detail is exacting.

Please provide more photos once you receive this beauty.

Congratulations!

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 10 May, 2010 3:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben van Koert wrote:
Eek!
That's really amazing! Thanks! That's a great resource!


Sean, that is a great resource!

For those who are interested, here's the direct URL to the full collection of sallet images at the RA: http://collections.royalarmouries.org/index.p...=&pg=1

Ben, Congratulations on another piece! I've enjoyed watching your kit evolve, and it has been an inspiration for mine. So thanks for the effort you go to in researching your pieces, and in capturing them all for us to learn from.
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Ben van Koert




Location: Veenendaal, the Netherlands
Joined: 23 May 2007
Reading list: 14 books

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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 8:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks everyone for the kind replies!
She arrived today, and I'm so happy with her! She feels rock solid and is very very heavy.
It has a real good historical feel to it, including historical crooked 'off' lines. Great bulbous skull and fantastic spring catch.

The bevor's a bit too low for my tastes, but luckily the sallet 's also compatible with my HE bevor, although it's a horrible stylecrash. I'll write a longer story later on, but who wants to read that anyway? Here are the pics:















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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 9:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gorgeous! Just perfect in every way. For my project I was also considering red straps and painted red interior based on some Austrian paintings of the period. : ) If I do that, please don't think I'm just stealing your idea!

I wouldn't worry too much about that bevor. The RA piece is mounted deep but you can see a fit like yours in illustrations of that period (see below) If it bothers you, you could always add a lame to the bevor or add some padding to the lower lame so that it sits higher on your chest.

It's so refreshing to see a helmet that fits the wearer so well! Have you weighed it?

A technical question: I assume that the little half-moon cutout in the ridge is for a crest but I've also wondered if that serves as a catch for the raised visor. Does it work that way? Does the cutout go all the way through the bowl of the helmet? If so, that would also promote cooling of the head (but also let in rain). It looks like one could use a round file to file that notch in the ridge but I've never seen a photo of that detail so any insight you can offer is welcome. Thanks!



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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 1:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can it be that the gap between the hat and the bevor is there by intent? The hats visor has a rising line, opening the gap even more. The bevor is deep, similar to a "crop". So maybe lowering the head in the charge will close the gap (the bevor is formed deep enough for this), while under other circumstances it allows for easier breathing, etc.
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Christopher VaughnStrever




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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix, that is a very interesting idea there. Exactly, with a deep bevor for the chin to lower down into and yet allow the helm and bevor not to get too mingled with each other.
Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Comparing those pics to the RA pics, I think that the sallet is sitting wrong on your head. It looks like it's tipped too far back. In the RA picks, the protruding bottom of the eyeslit is almost level. In the pictures where you're wearing it, it's pointing up. I'm amazed you can see anything at all.

Perhaps it's a simple matter of redoing or realigning the chin strap to tilt the helm forward?
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Mark T




PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben, Fantastic ... and I look forward to the longer story.

Sean Flynt wrote:
For my project I was also considering red straps and painted red interior based on some Austrian paintings of the period.


Sean: My sallet also has red straps ... but painted red inside is intriguing ... if you have a chance to post those images (whether here or in a new post), I'd love to see them!

Felix R. wrote:
So maybe lowering the head in the charge will close the gap (the bevor is formed deep enough for this), while under other circumstances it allows for easier breathing, etc.


And the reverse is also true: my bevor - an 'aftermarket' mismatch for my custom sallet, admittedly - is quite high, and hits on the sides of the sallet during certain movements. This not only jars the sallet, but also causes a disconcerting sound, and scrapes away the paint on the helm's inside.

However, I've always been a little wary of the historical images of the quite large gaps between sallets and bevors, wondering if it was more a way for the artists to show the face of the people underneath, and/or provide some way of showing the separation/deliniation of the sallet and bevor ... do we have any other sources to draw on to add to this discussion?
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Wed 12 May, 2010 3:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben,

Glad it has arrived. It looks much happier now with your harness!

Regarding the bevor and sallet fit... Could it be that the bevor is not back far enough against your throat? If it is loose it will hang lower and forward to far for the helmet... I could not tell for certain from the pictures but looked like perhaps you had a bit of room in there.

Just a though. You could give the maker a call and ask as well and see if he has any ideas.

An all around good looking helmet though!

RPM
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Ben van Koert




Location: Veenendaal, the Netherlands
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PostPosted: Thu 13 May, 2010 1:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks everyone!

Felix R. wrote:
Can it be that the gap between the hat and the bevor is there by intent? The hats visor has a rising line, opening the gap even more. The bevor is deep, similar to a "crop". So maybe lowering the head in the charge will close the gap (the bevor is formed deep enough for this), while under other circumstances it allows for easier breathing, etc.


Hi Felix,

This is a theory which sounds very plausible, as this is something I discovered turing the shoot as well.
However, last night I found out another thing. The bevor can pivot at the shoulder, but due to gravity the chin part is always down. Whenever I lift it, the gap is still there, but then it's within reasonable and documentable margins.

Sander Marechal wrote:
Comparing those pics to the RA pics, I think that the sallet is sitting wrong on your head. It looks like it's tipped too far back. In the RA picks, the protruding bottom of the eyeslit is almost level. In the pictures where you're wearing it, it's pointing up. I'm amazed you can see anything at all.

Perhaps it's a simple matter of redoing or realigning the chin strap to tilt the helm forward?


Hi Sander,

I don't think you can base the fit or posture of a helmet on a museum display. The funny thing is that I just put the sallet on my head, closed the visor, adjusted it for maximum vision by tilting it and had the photos taken. The fit of the helmet is so good that the strap's only there to keep the helmet from getting knocked from my head, it's not there for keeping it in the right place.
Actually when the visor is lifted (and this really is about 4 to 5 cm at max) I tilt the rest of the helmet a bit backward more to allow more vision. I believe it works like this. The visor still protects the face a lot from incoming arrows and you neck is also covered more. I believe this is shown in a lot of miniatures and other documents too.

After reading your post I tried tilting the helmet to try and get as much vision from the visor as possible, but then it sat absolutely uncomfortable on my head. Essentially I was tilting the helmet forward and forward until my eyes came even closer to the visor, and that caused the increased vision.
Here also lies the point of why I can actually see through it. It has a perfect fit, and it places my eyes very close to the visor and the closer your eyes to the visorslit, the wider your angle of vision will be.
I looked closely in the mirror with some extra light and when holding my head normal the visor was perfectly aligned with my pupils.

I think is also an optical illusion, as at an off angle it would seem it points upwards more than it does.

Here's a closer look.


And here's a frontal shot, but I'm couched forward some more. Better connection with the bevor too.

By the way, I noticed you post on the Zwaardkring board, will you also attend Teylingen this weekend?

Randall Moffett wrote:

Regarding the bevor and sallet fit... Could it be that the bevor is not back far enough against your throat? If it is loose it will hang lower and forward to far for the helmet... I could not tell for certain from the pictures but looked like perhaps you had a bit of room in there.

RPM

Hi Randall,

The standard is indeed very thick. This problem will be met later this year, when my 6 mm riveted maille arrives. This one has a bit too much padding for this cause, but I wanted to try it for the photo, but even without the standard the bevor is a bit too low. For this weekend's tournament I'll discard the standard.
The chin part stays down, but can be lifted due to pivot points on the schoulder. I'm considering making a spring underneath the chin part, which is attached to the lower lame. This way it keeps the chin up, covering enough gap to make the image and protection much better.
I'm hesitant though, I'm hoping for a more historical solution before making alterations to such a outstanding and exact replica.

Sean Flynt wrote:
Gorgeous! Just perfect in every way. For my project I was also considering red straps and painted red interior based on some Austrian paintings of the period. : ) If I do that, please don't think I'm just stealing your idea!

I wouldn't worry too much about that bevor. The RA piece is mounted deep but you can see a fit like yours in illustrations of that period (see below) If it bothers you, you could always add a lame to the bevor or add some padding to the lower lame so that it sits higher on your chest.

It's so refreshing to see a helmet that fits the wearer so well! Have you weighed it?

A technical question: I assume that the little half-moon cutout in the ridge is for a crest but I've also wondered if that serves as a catch for the raised visor. Does it work that way? Does the cutout go all the way through the bowl of the helmet? If so, that would also promote cooling of the head (but also let in rain). It looks like one could use a round file to file that notch in the ridge but I've never seen a photo of that detail so any insight you can offer is welcome. Thanks!


Hi Sean,

On the paintings you posted you can exactly see my problem. Their bevor comes up to their nose, mine to the lips. However, when keeping the chin up this problem is almost met. Here's my other bevor, with my old sallet, which gives a lot more protection. (although stylistically a horror to combine with this helmet)


About padding it, it's already slightly padded underneath and comfortably padded inside.

The cutout is indeed for a crest. It's a square/rectangular hole, and it's probably filed down to create this shape, I guess.
It's not intended as a catch for the visor. Hence, the visor lifts just enough to look underneath through. The rest still protects my face. It's possible to force it higher, but it will never get anywhere near the hole.

I haven't weighed it yet, for I'm lacking scales, but my guess is 4 to 4,5 kg. The skull was pounded out of a 3 mm plate.
Italian armour always was heavier than the german stuff, especially the helmets and the cuirasses.

By the way, don't worry about me thinking you're trying to copy anything. These aren't the first red straps on a helmet nor will they be the last. The inside of mine's not painted so I don't see the connection there. Just do whatever you like, it won't matter to me. Happy
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 13 May, 2010 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's that red interior:


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-Sean

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 13 May, 2010 7:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In Sean's second picture, notice how the bevor stays below the nose. I've seen a number of period illustrations where that seems to be the case and some actually show good gaps between closed visor and raised bevors. In Sean's first pic, you can see a gap between sallet visor and bevor on the guy with his sword raised.

Actually you can see gaps in all the pics Sean has posted in this thread. Happy

Happy

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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Thu 13 May, 2010 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben van Koert wrote:
By the way, I noticed you post on the Zwaardkring board, will you also attend Teylingen this weekend


Nope. We're going to the workshop on fighting from horseback. That is, my girlfriend will be fighting and me and my broken finger will be watching and laughing from the sideline Big Grin
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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 15 May, 2010 6:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Here's that red interior:


Hi Sean, Thanks for that ... although when I zoom in on the second image, I only see a black interior of the sallet ... were you posting this instead to show the red strap?

For Ben and Sean (and others), below is a great image showing lots of red leather straps on various armour parts (including what appear to be straps that pass around the 'tail' of sallets - if anyone knows what that's about, please let me know!):

Here's the direct URL to a large file size, so you can zoom in: http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/collect...8&vT=1

I've posted this here in part because the topic of red straps came up, but also to mention the source I found it in, as the topic of good sources also came up, and I think this book will be of interest to Ben and Sean and others here:

Artists and warfare in the renaissanace, J.R. Hale (New Haven, Yale University Press, 1990). This book was given as a source in Gerry Embleton's Medieval military costume recreated in colour photographs (Ramsbury, Crowood Press, 2000).

The book contains 345 images from the mid-15th to mid-16th centuries, and focusses on Germanic and Italian sources, and goes into a lot of detail about the differences between each. Gerry listed it as a source under 'soldiers' rather than 'arms and armour', and that makes sense: the book contains some familiar images seen in armour contexts, but the content is much broader, and contains details about dress, custom, and fashion that I think Sean, Ben, and others here will love ... a great resource!



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'The trumph of fame', c. 1449, image from Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York
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