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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio-

Please refer to where I state I was offended.

I am not offended and, as a matter of fact, simply said, "let's be careful with the hyperbole."

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Karl Schlesien





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PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 7:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"If I were to make this blade with a modern CNC, without replicating the smallest detail, I rape the memory of this old master."

Maurizio, I am understanding what you mean 'rape the memory'. It is that the translation is taken wrong in the English.
I think what the translation they need to hören in English is "being disrespectful or not to do justice to the masters work".

When talking in a different languge it is unfortunate to be taken wrong.

Ich verstehe, was sie sagen.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Maurizio-

Please refer to where I state I was offended.

I am not offended and, as a matter of fact, simply said, "let's be careful with the hyperbole."


Ah ! A language difficulty again translating literally from Italian to English and in French one can also say " VIOLER " the spirit or intent of the original maker by not being as precise as possible in the duplicating of the original.

Now In French, and as I suspect in Italian, the word rape means in this context not respecting the original intent of the period maker with possibly a tinge of added lack of respect and not the hard use of the word " rape " in English: In other words the English word rape does not represent at all the meaning that Maurizio intended, and Maurizio is hurt and confused by what he perceives as an overreaction to what he was actually meaning as " Not being faithful to the spirit and high craftsmanship of the original ".

So instead of rape the proper translation would be the English " Violate " which you may notice sounds a lot like the French word " Violer ": The English word Violate has more than one meaning one of which is as a synonym for rape but can also mean:

A) Break or fail to comply with a rule or formal agreement.
B) Fail to respect.
C) Treat something sacred with irreverence or disrespect.
D) Physical violation or rape.


So before people get overheated or even more confused realize that this is all about bad and literal translation from Italian to English where the Italian word can have more than one meaning.

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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 8:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@ Karl, thanks for your clarification.
nun, auch ich verstehe, was sie sagen.

@ Jean, thanks, to prevent unnecessary overheating.

Took my vocabulary.
"A violation or infraction, as of a law, a legal obligation, or a promise, disrespectful of the law" . This is my meaning.
"To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, sexual intercourse Especially, commit rape on". This is not my meaning.

Now to eliminate stress.
In a reply to my old post at the end, I forget who, wrote: Just, two my cents.
I was angry, the meaning for me was: your speech is cheap enough that only two my cents.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 9:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Neat debate about nothing.

Once again, I ask: who was offended?

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 9:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
@ Karl, thanks for your clarification.
nun, auch ich verstehe, was sie sagen.

@ Jean, thanks, to prevent unnecessary overheating.

Took my vocabulary.
A violation or infraction, as of a law, a legal obligation, or a promise. This is my meaning.
To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, sexual intercourse Especially, commit rape on. This is not my meaning.

Now to eliminate stress.
In a reply to my old post at the end, I forget who, wrote: Just, two my cents.
I was angry, the meaning for me was: your speech is cheap enough that only two my cents.


And that expression is meant I believe to say: Here is my opinion, for what it is worth, please don't take offence or take it negatively ....... or something to that effect. Wink

Expressions/sayings are the most likely to be misunderstood out of context by someone with not familiar with their real meaning which may be very different from the literal meaning of the words.

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 9:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Nathan Robinson wrote:
Maurizio-

Please refer to where I state I was offended.

I am not offended and, as a matter of fact, simply said, "let's be careful with the hyperbole."


Ah ! A language difficulty again translating literally from Italian to English and in French one can also say " VIOLER " the spirit or intent of the original maker by not being as precise as possible in the duplicating of the original.


Excuse me, Jean, but since you're replying to me I must state that I had no "language difficulty" here and in fact am very clear about the intent of the phrase and the translation of the meaning. You are incorrect.

My statement to Maurizio was in response to his statement as he meant it.

Since my point has been undermined here, I say it again: "let's be careful with the hyperbole."

My analogy was a simple one: if we are to find a CNC-created blade to be a violation of the artisans of the past (in any sense) then we are also likely to find the typed word delivered via the 'net as a sort of violation to the fantastic authors of the past who have put quill to paper. In other words, there are many shades of gray to consider here and very few absolutes. As such, the use of hyperbole likely does not help this conversation.

Honestly, it was a tiny comment that needed no exploration of language, intent, or reading between the lines. There wasn't anything between the lines here.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 9:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Neat debate about nothing.

Once again, I ask: who was offended?


I'm sure you weren't offended but I'm fairly sure that Maurizio was at the very least puzzled and I am fairly sure that words where not being undertsood as intended.

Anyway, I will drop it now but when one knows more than one language it was so glaringly obvious what was happening in mistranslation that I thought it worth while to explain the best I could the confusion.

In any case lets get back to the Topic itself.

( EDITED ADDITIONAL: The above written while cross posting )

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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Nov, 2010 12:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan, first you say, "That's a strong statement. I Realize You're Not Being literal. If You Were, You'd Most Certainly be" Raping the memory "of All That Have put pen to paper Merely by typing your posts on keyboard for your view on this forum. "
I understand that those who spoke in my post, they may feel offended.

Then tell me: Who is offended?
For this, I respond and explain my thinking. But it's just my opinion, for what it is worth. But I agree, now, the hyperbole, I just like drawing them, not good for discussion.

I understand what you say, there are many shades of gray, but it's just what I wanted to know what people think about it. Puritans, practical, or what? Like the beautiful can be different through the ages. We consider a profile "normal" because we are only seeing one or because it is close to our ideal of beauty? I think an antique buyer. He knew all about swords and their performance, perhaps more than we claimed. Perhaps his idea of beauty was different?
It is clear that this discussion idealizes the concept of the sword, then in practice we could compromise, but that becomes an economic discourse, to what one can or is willing to spend. But money corrupts the concepts, here I am interested in how to make a sword as accurate as possible, avoiding wrong to want accurate.

P.S Correction:
before: you may feel offended.
now: they may feel offended.

Ciao
Maurizio


Last edited by Maurizio D'Angelo on Mon 01 Nov, 2010 5:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Diviccaro Roberto





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PostPosted: Mon 01 Nov, 2010 1:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio
For a warrior the sword was the life or the death. The beauty was an extra.
Nathan don't know XOR so he speak about shades of grey. the real profile isn't a opinion but a fact.
So i say to you " April is close and you have a job. Then ....".
i repeat to you: "a businessman is a businessman not a student. the honesty isn't measured with $$$ or €"
ciao

PS: A c or' te chiamè?
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Nov, 2010 5:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Diviccaro Roberto wrote:
Maurizio
For a warrior the sword was the life or the death. The beauty was an extra.


We know that already in the sixth century, even the swords of war were polished.
We know that from the shop of a blacksmith swords were made up to 25 per day, were made with the first grinding, were subsequently sent to other shops for finishing and polishing. For finish grinding were used women and children. Perhaps the soldiers had the idea of beauty. After the purchase to maintain a shiny sword you need to pay attention.
If need be I find the author and page.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Nov, 2010 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I get an email from a professor friend of mine. In general says the same things said by Craig, Peter and Jean. If directed to those blades in particular, where you know the profile and history, think that it is better to replicate as they are, but made no mistake who replication could be interpreted as if it leads to valid reasons why he thinks should be. In this case, however, the burden of proof is borne by those who interpret. A comment that helps me decide what to do, I think a constructive message to the topic, so I decided to post here.
Ciao
Maurizio
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2010 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Really difficult topic...

On one hand we know that medieval swords were sometimes sloppily made, and/or with bad heat treatment. On the other hand, we know that these swords must have worked well in their day, to the satisfaction of people who should have been much more critical of bad quality blades than we should be.

One question is whether the "mistakes" a smith made with a particular blade were intentional.
The other question is whether we, as a society, but also as individuals, understand enough about swords to make the decision whether a certain "mistake" would have been intentional or not.

I know that I would not really trust myself with this decision, so all in all, if it were possible, I would prefer the Star Trek Replicator idea.
On the other hand, I think someone like Peter is in a much better position to make this judgment, and I would also follow his ideas if I were to commission a reproduction of a certain sword.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, as always. Wink
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, the joys of translating Romance language thought, oft brimming with fire and emotion, into standard mundane English Happy Happy Happy
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote:
Ah, the joys of translating Romance language thought, oft brimming with fire and emotion, into standard mundane English Happy Happy Happy


a blade is made of cold hardened steel... but it has a soul. Happy

Ciao
Maurizio
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




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PostPosted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I know... Happy Happy Happy
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