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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 1,080

PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eh, perhaps I do misunderstand. Happens all the time. Happy

But, to be fair, aside from boors who get contrary just to be contrary, how are people supposed to know what you tell them for a fact without outside verification of some kind? Questioning your sources is a good thing, especially online. Happy


PS. Just to clarify, that's generic[ you, not just you specifically.

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Timo Nieminen




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 08 May 2009
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 1,504

PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looking at our books section, I see that the Japanese swords section doesn't deal with modern military swords (i.e., post-Edo).

The classic book is Fuller & Gregory, Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks, which tends to sell at an Armi Bianche Italiane kind of price. (I've not read this, but everybody says it's a great book.) There is a baby version of this, Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945, which is much more affordable, and easier to find. Also smaller. Another nice book is Dawson, Swords of Imperial Japan, 1868-1945, which is easy to find new on ebay.

Seeing as some people will readily pay more than the cheaper Fuller & Gregory and Dawson on ebay for swords that are obviously fakes, the value of investing in a little education is clear.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Karl Schlesien





Joined: 15 Sep 2010

Posts: 54

PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko, yes sometimes I am also guilty of it.

Quote:
Questioning your sources is a good thing, especially online.


Yes I agree 100%! I try and back up my sugghestions with at least two references from different sources.

And as for the boors yes I have read some very disturbing posts on the forums, forums are a very odd phenomenon. They can be an arena for the ego. A certain type of person that needs to dominate through intimidation. And the "forum" is a perfect place to do it, anonymity. It is like when I lived in Japan, you can see gaijin (foreigners) who would go there to reinvent themselfs, there is no one to call them on it. Ha, we used to call them Kyoto Gaijin! The ones who pretend they are samuai! Even the Japanese laugh!!!!

Which brings the discussion back to the reproduction tourist market chinese wanabe katana. I have seen many of these and the ageing is very good. A collector friend of mine who should know better was taken by a set of fittings (in Hong Kong). He thought these were orriginal but when you look at them close, you can see they are cast and well aged to look old!
Only by scratching the weld lines of patina can you see there is no solder just solid base metal showing.
They have moulded original pieces so that all the weld lines are there in the castings and a quick trip to the manure pile and there it is!

Technology! The fakes only get better so we have to get even better!
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Karl Schlesien





Joined: 15 Sep 2010

Posts: 54

PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some good sites to look through.

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm


http://japaneseswords.gotdns.com/booklist.htm


http://www.artswords.com/Swords_of_Imperial_J...Dawson.htm
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,698

PostPosted: Sun 17 Oct, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:
I think you'll find that the Katana itself was imitated from the Chinese culture, somewhere around the Han Dynasty.


Han is way too old for that. Extensive cultural contact between the mainland and Japan mostly happened during the Tang period.

That aside, the katana itself wasn't a direct imitation of Chinese culture. The Japanese adopted the straight-bladed saber (dao) of the Tang period along with its distinctly beveled edge and tip; then, after mainland contact became less intensive than before, the Japanese development of this sword type went its own way, making the blade rather more curved but retaining the bevel (which became the shinogi) to create the type we usually know as the tachi. By the time this type developed further into the straighter, broader, shorter uchigatana that led to the modern katana (curiously enough, making it more similar to its Tang-era predecessors), it had defined itself as a uniquely (or idiosyncratically) Japanese branch of a sword family that originated in China.
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 1,080

PostPosted: Sun 17 Oct, 2010 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Bennison N wrote:
I think you'll find that the Katana itself was imitated from the Chinese culture, somewhere around the Han Dynasty.


Han is way too old for that. Extensive cultural contact between the mainland and Japan mostly happened during the Tang period.

That aside, the katana itself wasn't a direct imitation of Chinese culture. The Japanese adopted the straight-bladed saber (dao) of the Tang period along with its distinctly beveled edge and tip; then, after mainland contact became less intensive than before, the Japanese development of this sword type went its own way, making the blade rather more curved but retaining the bevel (which became the shinogi) to create the type we usually know as the tachi. By the time this type developed further into the straighter, broader, shorter uchigatana that led to the modern katana (curiously enough, making it more similar to its Tang-era predecessors), it had defined itself as a uniquely (or idiosyncratically) Japanese branch of a sword family that originated in China.

In a nutshell, yeah. Although it should be noted that there was periodic contact and cultural trade between Japan and the mainland cultures all along this process, with varying levels of influence... Like everything, it gets kinda complicated and surprisingly nuanced when you look closer. Happy

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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