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P. Cha
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 Posted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Max Chouinard wrote: | I have already written elsewhere how dubious this organization seems to me. Based on their visibly weak membership criteria, I don't see how becoming a member can be useful. It seems that the poor knowledge of the leaders of this Union have doomed it to become another "sokeship council", but this time with ties to the UNESCO. I personally think that WoMAU should review its goals, while their selection in every other country seems quite decent, for some reason in the European one, on 12 arts, 8 (and possibly 9 as I have no idea what this mysterious RUMA is) have nothing to do with the culture that they wish to represent apart from gaudy national costumes, dubious historical connections (if any) and a name. Maybe if all the legit arts of Europe joined they could change things from the inside, but I feel they would already be outnumbered.
I could do samba in a traditional Quebec costume, change the name and add a few jig steps. But I could not go to the UNESCO and ask to be recognized as a world intangible heritage. Ethnologists all over would simply obliterate me. But because there are so few scholars seriously researching martial arts, we have Hwaran Mudosul being recognized as one. I'd like to see what documents they submitted to get the approval...
I think the phrase that describes the situation best is this one taken from Bulgarian Kempo (...): "in the real essence of "Bulkempo" there are no winners." |
Well considering they accept hap ki kwan as traditional martial arts, I may semi- agree wth you on this groups validity of purpose. Hap ki kwan is basically hap ki do with a few jigs thrown in quite frankly.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | For e.g. "HEMA" is already widely used and understood within the community, wheras the new proposed term "MARE" adds absolutely nothing of value and actually artificially excludes both pre- and post-Renaissance methods - this reflects the self-chosen bias of ARMA and its director and certainly does not represent the rest of the HEMA community, many of whom practice medieval, baroque and enlightenment (not to mention Classical Fencing) methods alongside Renaissance ones.
Quite frankly, all the navel gazing and time expended on trying to redefine terms (when perfectly adequate ones already exist - e.g. HEMA, WMA, HES, HF etc) would be better spent with swords in hand, training. EMMV. |
Actually, the acronym Mr. Clements personally suggested made explicit mention of both Medieval and Renaissance martial arts. It was rejected on the basis that it made for a poor acronym; not that MARE is outstanding, but it's better than the initial suggestion.
HEMA is too broad to be used as a term representative for ARMA's focus. We do not focus on baroque era methods, nor 19th century sabre fighting, nor Greco/Roman martial arts, all of which are included in the term "HEMA". WMA is equally inadequate, if not even worse, because it can also include modern Western martial art forms which are quite unlike those of medieval and Renaissance Europe. HES does not work well as a term because the name seems to imply a focus entirely upon swordfighting, which leaves out polearms, daggers, and any other weapons that do not fit under that term. Historical Fighting, assuming that is what is meant by "HF", is again broad but very vague.
The problem is that nearly any term you can come up with is inadequate in some way. There was consideration about using historical terms, such as Kunst des Fechtens, but that doesn't really fit for the Italian tradition. The Noble Science of Defense likewise has a strong regional flavour, and it reflects a later Renaissance view of fencing that may not be how medieval people understood the art (I doubt that Liechtenauer or Fiore considered their arts a "Science").
In the end, the choice for acronym was selected from Dr. Sydney Anglo's book, The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe. While there's problems with this terms, as others have mentioned, it does roughly coincide with the main time period which is ARMA's focus. But, if anything, the discussion about what term to choose revealed the inadequacy of terms in general. Since a term was needed for WoMAU, the ARMA went with MARE.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: |
In the end, the choice for acronym was selected from Dr. Sydney Anglo's book, The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe. While there's problems with this terms, as others have mentioned, it does roughly coincide with the main time period which is ARMA's focus. But, if anything, the discussion about what term to choose revealed the inadequacy of terms in general. Since a term was needed for WoMAU, the ARMA went with MARE. |
Thanks for the explanation and frankly MARE isn't offensive it's just that one does notice the other common meaning and we may be nit picking as it doesn't matter that much as long as it doesn't cause great confusion: If we get used to it, it wont be even noticed eventually.
To temper earlier posts this whole thing can be seen as a positive recognition of the arts we practice in general and where problems may occur is if and when it is perceived that ARMA becomes the official voice of other people with different organizations or different approaches: This may not be the case and just an over reaction based on assumptions.
So maybe we should be congratulatory for ARMA to have received this recognition that if handled with tact and respect for other groups could be seen as something positive.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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James Anderson III
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| Posted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I've met John Clements once at a 3-4 hour class he taught, but other than that single meeting earlier this year, I had no idea who he was until a few weeks before the class. He seemed to teach well, seemed to show knowledge of the material, and I never felt a need to dig further since he lives many states away and isn't a potential weekly/monthly teacher.
Despite my ~15 year indulgence in medieval & renaissance arms and armor, he did mention a number of things about historical European combat and sword use that caused some "what? seriously? huh? no way!" moments, but he backed them with explanations, demonstrations, and citing of period sources. It literally gave me a new appreciation for European combat, and changed my perception on how it compares to Japanese combat.
On the MARE vs ARMA subject, I don't see a world of difference between them. As Craig said, all of our acronyms have their shortfalls.
ARMA = Association of Renaissance Martial Arts
MARE = Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe
Both have renaissance and martial arts in their names. Granted, it's yet ANOTHER acronym to add to already substantial list of terms to try when researching online, but it isn't a term that we have to embrace or use. We can still call our local groups whatever we choose, we aren't bound by any regulations from higher up, and it is, as they say, business as usual.
I also agree that some visibility to the arts is a good thing. Think of how many people still think that combat was exactly as Hollywood portrays it. I like to think education should come first, and fret about acronyms later. 
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent
Knight, Order of the Marshal
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E Stafford
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| Posted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Congratulations.
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Nathan Quarantillo
Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I personally don't belong to a group, and you may all have your own opinions of Mr Clements or the ARMA system in general, but I'm sure that they are hell of a lot better representatives to the general populace than hollywood "Swordplay Experts", the geniuses behind deadliest warrior, and the occasional modern fencer saying how bad the old "brutish" ways are.
Go to the ARMA website, and a beginner will have access to many articles on the basics, advanced moves, equipment, almost anything on historical fencing. I'm personally thrilled that we actually have an organization who practices the art out there getting exposure.
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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F. Carl Holz
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| Posted: Thu 14 Oct, 2010 5:37 am Post subject: |
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yes, i think for my part i will just be glad that the community is getting some recognition.
Congrats Arma, thanks for helping get our name out there! (even if not all of us prescribe to quite the same one: mare, arma, wma, hema... )
31. And there are some whom everyone should consider to be wise...
-Le Livre de Chevalerie, Geffroi Charny-
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Werner Stiegler
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| Posted: Thu 14 Oct, 2010 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas R. wrote: |
I have a feeling, that most of the german fencing groups don't think, John Clements can represent either them nor the art of european historical fencing in any union or NGO. Representing the ARMA - okay, but not the art.
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I have a feeling that most german fencing groups will just take it as a crazy american pulicity stunt and just carry on, ignoring it completely. 
Remember that Clement puts more focus on and work into selling his concept than any of us. He did that from the very beginning and he kept at it. It's only natural that his dedication would earn him such a position.
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