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Christopher Punty




Location: tx
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 3:07 pm    Post subject: Rondel Dagger Recommendations         Reply with quote

I'm looking for a rondel dagger suitable for a late 14th C English knight. It will be purely ornamental, so sharp/blunt doesn't matter at all. The primary considerations are it look pretty, and come with a scabbard (i'm lazy and have no desire to deal with the at least 5 failed attempts it will take to make a scabbard) and I would prefer it not to be overly expensive, and would prefer off the shelf vs having something made. I saw the $40 hanwai daggers but didn't like them. I'll appreciate any help you can give me.

Something like this but with a decent looking sheath is pretty much what I want.
http://www.alcheminc.com/rondel.jpg
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Take a look at the Del Tin 2155 reviewed by Bill Grandy here on myArmoury.
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher,
Those Alchem daggers have features that don't look all that historical, especially for the 14th century. What's your budget? "Not overly expensive" means different things to different people. Happy

Happy

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Colin F.




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 3:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I own one by Tod's Stuff.

http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/knives-military/ro...knives.htm

They are a bit more expensive than the other makes you have looked at, but they are excellent quality and Tod is someone always worth talking to. I met him at Fight Camp this summer and bought another bollock dagger of his whilst I was there!

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
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Christopher Punty




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 3:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The budget is <$200.

I thought that simple shape like the picture would be a fairly safe bet, I'm definitely open to suggestions for something that would be more historically accurate for the last quarter of the 14th C.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 4:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With a $200 or less budget, maybe the English Cutler (http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/theenglishcutler/) might work. It converts to about $145 plus shipping. Scabbard included.

The options are a little limited in this range. MRL has a brass-handled rondel, but it dates more to the first 1/4 of the 15th century than to the last 1/4 of the 14th. Another rondel by them (available through Kult of Athena as the Horn Rondel) is very ahistorical.

Darkwood Armoury has a couple in that price range. One is listed with a fencing blade but probably can be made with a regular blade for a fee. The other is here (http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_7&products_id=122) and has a regular blade. I don't know about scabbards and whether they're in stock, though.

Del Tin's offerings come in just a few bucks above your price range but have no scabbards.

Happy

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Michael B.
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I had been looking at that Horn Rondel dagger by MRL. With some reworking of the blade and guard it could be nice. I've seen two different samples in museum photographs of that one, and like it's uniqueness.
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Michael Bergstrom
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 6:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael B. wrote:
I had been looking at that Horn Rondel dagger by MRL. With some reworking of the blade and guard it could be nice. I've seen two different samples in museum photographs of that one, and like it's uniqueness.


The grip slabs are highly unusual and the blade is as well. Have you found a museum piece that is similar to MRL's piece?

Happy

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Christopher Punty




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
With a $200 or less budget, maybe the English Cutler (http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/theenglishcutler/) might work. It converts to about $145 plus shipping. Scabbard included.

The options are a little limited in this range. MRL has a brass-handled rondel, but it dates more to the first 1/4 of the 15th century than to the last 1/4 of the 14th. Another rondel by them (available through Kult of Athena as the Horn Rondel) is very ahistorical.

Darkwood Armoury has a couple in that price range. One is listed with a fencing blade but probably can be made with a regular blade for a fee. The other is here (http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_7&products_id=122) and has a regular blade. I don't know about scabbards and whether they're in stock, though.

Del Tin's offerings come in just a few bucks above your price range but have no scabbards.


Im liking those English cutler daggers.
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 6:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
With a $200 or less budget, maybe the English Cutler (http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/theenglishcutler/) might work. It converts to about $145 plus shipping. Scabbard included.


I hate you so much right now...if the shipping cost to the US isn't too much, I maybe sending a few paychecks that way thanks to you Laughing Out Loud .
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct, 2010 6:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
I hate you so much right now...if the shipping cost to the US isn't too much, I maybe sending a few paychecks that way thanks to you Laughing Out Loud .


Don't hate me. Happy

Shipping is very reasonable. Tod should be able to tell you how much.

Happy

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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Sat 30 Oct, 2010 4:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From English Cutler website:

Postage charges are caluculated on the value of the sale and for the UK are as follows:

* Up to 49.99 - 6.00
* 50.00-149.99 - 8.00
* 150.00-450.00 - 12.00
* 450.00-750.00 - 20.00
* 750.00 plus - 25.00

Charges for international deliveries are UK costs plus a supplement of 40% for Europe and 50% for rest of the world.

---------------

Rondel 1 - 90.00 + 8.00 + 4.00 (50% supplement for out of Europe delivery) = 102.00 (approx. $165)
Rondel 2 - 125.00 + 8.00 + 4.00 (50% supplement for out of Europe delivery) = 137.00 (approx. $220)



Bargain. I'm ordering #2, that's around 160 EUR. I've been researching for a 1450 - 80 rondel dagger, used in German lands, and a lot of pictorial evidence points to this type - sandwiched rondels with organic material between steel disks. The only thing I am not to sure about is blade cross section - it looks pretty thick, and I hope it is. Dagger looks quite long, with 33cm (13") blade the whole length looks like 46 cm (18"), 11cm (4,4") grip.



I wanted to commission a dagger from Tod, but this one looks like it fits my wishes completely. I know it's "off the peg", but that doesn't worry me too much, I don't think there are too many of them in Slovenia! Wink


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Christopher Punty




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PostPosted: Sat 30 Oct, 2010 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm actually starting to lean towards a quillon dagger, all the English effigies I've looked at seem to have one
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Michael B.
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PostPosted: Sat 30 Oct, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Michael B. wrote:
I had been looking at that Horn Rondel dagger by MRL. With some reworking of the blade and guard it could be nice. I've seen two different samples in museum photographs of that one, and like it's uniqueness.


The grip slabs are highly unusual and the blade is as well. Have you found a museum piece that is similar to MRL's piece?


I thought I had another one on the hard drive, can't find it right now, but I did find this one.


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Michael Bergstrom
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sat 30 Oct, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah that rondel dagger 2, the bollock dagger 3 and the misericord are all speaking to me right now. Also wanna get some of the eating sets and the cooking set (being a chef and all). Maybe the whittle knife and bollock 1 for something simple too. I normally ignored Tod's stuff because the commision costs make it kinda high and the wait time long...but with the english cutler...I blame Chad for this Wink .

Off tangent: never heard of the misericord before seeing it on tod's site. Anyone have more info on these daggers?
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 30 Oct, 2010 5:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael B. wrote:
I thought I had another one on the hard drive, can't find it right now, but I did find this one.


Here's another image of that piece, posted by Blaz Berlec in the thread "Extremely long daggers."



It's from the Brussels Koninklijk Legermuseum. They date it to the mid 14th century and call it Flemish.

I suppose I stand corrected in my thinking that MRL made this one up out of nowhere. The hilt form of the MRL dagger is unusual but seems to be based on this piece in Brussels. MRL uses horn instead of what appears to be bone and they use fewer rivets than the original, but MRL's hilt is plausible. The blade is not much like the original's, though, in size or in form.

Happy

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Christopher Punty




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PostPosted: Sat 30 Oct, 2010 7:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
Yeah that rondel dagger 2, the bollock dagger 3 and the misericord are all speaking to me right now. Also wanna get some of the eating sets and the cooking set (being a chef and all). Maybe the whittle knife and bollock 1 for something simple too. I normally ignored Tod's stuff because the commision costs make it kinda high and the wait time long...but with the english cutler...I blame Chad for this Wink .

Off tangent: never heard of the misericord before seeing it on tod's site. Anyone have more info on these daggers?


that dagger labeled as a misericord is interesting, I've always been under the impression that the term misericord was a euphemism or literary device, a bit of dark humor as it would, in a way, be merciful to give someone a quick clean death with your dagger than leaving them to die slowly, and not a specific type of dagger.
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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 12:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi All,

Christopher Punty wrote
Quote:
that dagger labeled as a misericord is interesting, I've always been under the impression that the term misericord was a euphemism or literary device, a bit of dark humor as it would, in a way, be merciful to give someone a quick clean death with your dagger than leaving them to die slowly, and not a specific type of dagger.


I think it may well be exactly a literary device or euphemism, but here is what I wrote in a recent email to someone about this.

"Misericords are as I say 'semi-mythical' . They may have existed as objects,
but not as a class of objects in their own right and so a misericord may
have been a rondel, or a whittle tang dagger or bollock dagger etc. Anyway
this dagger is a just a delicate form of a pretty standard type of simple
medieval dagger and there is a larger version in the Museum of London that
is very similar with a 16" blade (I think)."

Basically if I have a handle on it, you would not go to a cutler and ask for a misericorde, but you may refer to your rondel, bollock etc as a misericorde, nor in that sense would you see a dagger labelled as one in a museum.

Regards

Tod

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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sun 31 Oct, 2010 11:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hehe, thanks Tod, got your e-mail Happy .

Now for on topic...if the dagger is purely decorative, maybe a deepka one may work. Something like this one maybe?

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...del+Dagger
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Nov, 2010 12:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

IMHO bladed weapons, unless they're meant as blunted practice tools or teaching props for kids, are supposed to be real. With a keen edge and proper tempering and well kept.
I'm still extremely pleased with the kit Bullock dagger I got from Tod some years back, it actually punched through riveted maille with the aid of a hard sword pommel knock, and looks great. Doesn't get any better than that.
Still, if it's just a dress accessory that makes it a lot easier to find one that looks bling at a decent price.

Am I right guessing it's for personal re-enactment use and not a wallhanger?
To my experience you find uses for a sharp knife in your belt in evreyday camp life. And none for bling fake knives. I've had plenty of both and it's always embarrassing when you're asked to cut something with a blunt fake, even a pretty one. Wink

And you never know, I once got face to face with this pack of wolves. I've learned much later that Wolves almost never attack humans and can even be playful and doglike, steal your mittens, share meals and even in unusual cases form bonds with people lost in the woods. But they have a much more poweful bite than any domestic dog and are very dangerous if heavily provoked, cornered wounded, or sick. At the time what kept me cool whas the knowlege that at least I had one very sharp and big tooth made of steel in the sceath at my back, it literally saved my shorts. Ever since I make sure to always have one with my garb.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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